Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

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thang
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Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by thang »

Considering the Four Noble Truths, Dukkha Nirodha is mentioned before the Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada.
Why is that?
When we contemplate the four noble truths (by ordinary wisdom), first we contemplate about the Dukkha nature of the world or any particular thing. Then we can try to understand the cause for that Dukkha as Tanha/bondage.
Then ?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
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Dhammanando
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by Dhammanando »

As to order ...

... The truth of suffering is given first since it is easy to understand because of its grossness and because it is common to all living beings. The truth of origin is given next to show its cause. Then the truth of cessation, to make it known that with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of the fruit. The truth of the path comes last to show the means to achieve that.

Or alternatively, the Blessed One announced the truth of suffering first to instill a sense of urgency into living beings caught up in the enjoyment of the pleasure of becoming; and next to that, the truth of origin to make it known that that [suffering] neither comes about of itself as something not made nor is it due to creation by an Overlord, a Basic Principle, Time, Nature, etc., but that on the contrary it is due to this [cause]; after that, cessation, to instill comfort by showing the escape to those who seek the escape from suffering with a sense of urgency because overwhelmed by suffering with its cause. And after that, the path that leads to cessation, to enable them to attain cessation. This is how the exposition should be understood here as to order.

(Path of Purification xvi 29-30)
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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bodom
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by bodom »

The therapeutic nature of the Four Noble Truths

Before turning to a consideration of the Four Noble Truths individually, I would like to draw your attention to a few facts about the formula in general. In this context, it is appropriate to recall that the ancient science of medicine had enjoyed a certain degree of development by the time of the Buddha. One of the fundamental formulas evolved by practitioners of the science of medicine in ancient India was the fourfold scheme of disease, diagnosis, cure, and treatment. If you consider carefully these four stages in the practice of the science of medicine, it will be apparent that they correspond very closely to the formula of the Four Noble Truths: (1) the truth of suffering clearly corresponds to the first element of disease; (2) the truth of the cause just as clearly corresponds to the element of diagnosis; (3) the truth of cessation corresponds to the achievement of a cure; and (4) the truth of the path just as clearly corresponds to the course of treatment of a disease.
https://www.dharmanet.org/Della4nobletruths.htm

:anjali:
This is our foundation: to have sati, recollection, and sampajañña, self-awareness, whether standing, walking, sitting, or reclining. Whatever arises, just leave it be, don’t cling to it. Whether it’s like or dislike, happiness or suffering, doubt or certainty... Don’t try to label everything, just know it. See that all the things that arise in the mind are simply sensations. They are transient. They arise, exist and cease. That’s all there is to them, they have no self or being, they are neither ‘us’ nor ‘them’. None of them are worthy of clinging to.

- Ajahn Chah
Srilankaputra
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

I guess there are many paths in life. One needs to know about the destination before choosing a path.

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
SarathW
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by SarathW »

You have to set the goal before starting the journey.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
thang
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by thang »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:14 am
As to order ...
... suffering is given first since it is easy to understand .. origin is given next to show its cause. .. cessation, to make it known that with the cessation of the cause there is the cessation of the fruit. .. path comes last to show the means to achieve that.

Or alternatively, .. suffering first to instill a sense of urgency .. origin to make it known that it is due to this [cause]; .. cessation, to instill comfort by showing the escape .. path to enable them to attain cessation. (Path of Purification xvi 29-30)
Thank you bhante for the excerpt. :anjali:
bodom wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:24 am
The therapeutic nature of the Four Noble Truths
.. ancient science of medicine in ancient India was the fourfold scheme of disease, diagnosis, cure, and treatment. .. they correspond very closely to the formula of the Four Noble Truths. ..
Thank you for the excerpt. :namaste:
Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:52 am .. One needs to know about the destination before choosing a path.
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:56 am You have to set the goal before starting the journey.
Thank you both. :namaste:

Another point:

Samma Ditthi is described (in SN Vibhanga sutta) as wisdom of dukkha, wisdom of samudaya, wisdom of nirodha, wisdom of magga.
'Wisdom of Path' is a factor of the 'first step of the Path'.
So 'Wisdom of Path' is a factor of 'Path'.
Do you have any idea about how this happens?
Does it function as feed-back cycles?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
Srilankaputra
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by Srilankaputra »

thang wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:16 am Does it function as feed-back cycles?
And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.
...
One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.


And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. This is one's right view

One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong resolve & for entering right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve.


And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. This is one's right view

One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong speech & for entering right speech: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech.


And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. This is one's right view.

One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong action & for entering into right action: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong action & to enter & remain in right action: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right action.


And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood, and right livelihood as right livelihood. This is one's right view

One tries to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter into right livelihood: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong livelihood & to enter & remain in right livelihood: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right livelihood.


And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Lokāmisaṃ pajahe santipekkho ti
SarathW
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by SarathW »

Does it function as feed-back cycles?
This is the most wonderful thing about Buddha's teaching.
Say if you are in medical school and learning about the hart and the lung.
Can you speak only about the hart without knowing the lungs or vice versa?
Buddhas teaching is not linear.
You find this loopback system in Dependent Origination and Noble Eightfold Path etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
thang
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by thang »

Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am
.. One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.
...right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. .. right resolve. .. right speech. .. right action. .. right livelihood. .. In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. ... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. ..
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:03 am This is the most wonderful thing about Buddha's teaching. .. Can you speak only about the hart without knowing the lungs or vice versa?
Buddhas teaching is not linear. You find this loopback system in Dependent Origination and Noble Eightfold Path etc.
Gratitude.
:anjali:
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."
SarathW
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Re: Why Nibbana comes before the Path ?

Post by SarathW »

thang wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:31 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am
.. One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.
...right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view. .. right resolve. .. right speech. .. right action. .. right livelihood. .. In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. ... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. ..
SarathW wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:03 am This is the most wonderful thing about Buddha's teaching. .. Can you speak only about the hart without knowing the lungs or vice versa?
Buddhas teaching is not linear. You find this loopback system in Dependent Origination and Noble Eightfold Path etc.
Gratitude.
:anjali:
I am glad you noticed that. (loop back in Buddha's teaching)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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