Ambivalence

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lostitude
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by lostitude »

Thanks again everyone for your responses. Sorry to have made the discussion a bit too much about myself, at first I wanted to address the topic in more general terms, but it is always easier to talk about one's own experience. I agree this thread could be moved.
Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:14 pm
Ajahn chah said, if you haven't gone against the grain you have never practiced. The path goes through the obstacles. You yourself have to find a way to overcome the obstacle. That's how wisdom grows.
I've been suspecting all along this was the case, as in all other religions I've ever heard about, but if going against the grain means fighting yourself, then the problem I have with that is, why do some people succeed in fighting themselves, while others fail?
The most common answer to that is "they have willpower, others don't". But willpower is not a muscle in your body, it's a construct that's supposed to describe what exactly? I don't even know.
In other words, I tend to see the concept of willpower as a fiction, and that there must be more specific and more definable factors explaining why some people find it in them to do XYZ while others don't. Maybe the ambivalence I was talking about is related to not clearly understanding what those stumbling blocks are for those who fail, and what those success factors are for those who succeed.
SDC wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:25 pm The suttas tell you how to turn on that “with the grain” trajectory, and moving against the grain gives an entire different perspective to sort out.
I really need to read more :thinking:
Making that turn takes effort
I have the same problem with that. What is it that determines that you can easily make an effort that I can't? I wish it were possible to divide up the necessary effort into a number of tiny steps that would be numerous enough to make the effort seemingly disappear.
Struggling to end suffering is the practice
I hate that depressing rule. It reminds me of old-school teaching in general, when teachers/trainers believed that the best way to teach was to make the learners suffer, whereas less taxing, more rational and carefully devised approaches could be just as effective. Of course I'm not contradicting you, I just don't like to read this!

Thank you Binocular, yes I have heard similar stuff in the past, including the spiral of relapse/change, although again I'm not quite sure how this could apply to motivating someone to practice (I'll read up on it though, thanks for the references).
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by SDC »

binocular wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 pm It takes practice in order to become comfortable with adjusting as one goes along; that kind of flexibility doesn't seem to come naturally.
Indeed, and going against the grain isn't natural. Especially when it comes to understanding the Dhamma. There is tremdous risk when you set aside what is stable for the unknown.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by SDC »

lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:50 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:25 pmMaking that turn takes effort
I have the same problem with that. What is it that determines that you can easily make an effort that I can't? I wish it were possible to divide up the necessary effort into a number of tiny steps that would be numerous enough to make the effort seemingly disappear.
It isn’t easy at all. It can be relatively easy to agree with the suttas or enjoy or be inspired by what you read, but it is a whole other effort to actually apply it - to have those descriptions affect your understanding. See what I wrote to binocular above. There is an inherent risk in applying the teaching. Which means you need to be willing to lose some (and eventually even more) of the understanding that you are used to having. I think this is why ‘disenchantment’ is found so often in the suttas – when someone is disenchanted with how things are they are far more poised and prepared to let them go and take up something else (or rather, no longer take up anything else).
lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:50 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:25 pmStruggling to end suffering is the practice
I hate that depressing rule. It reminds me of old-school teaching in general, when teachers/trainers believed that the best way to teach was to make the learners suffer, whereas less taxing, more rational and carefully devised approaches could be just as effective. Of course I'm not contradicting you, I just don't like to read this!
Well, think about it. There is a certain degree of sabotage that happens when you practice the Dhamma. You may be disenchanted with how things are (I think we all are), but that doesn’t mean that you are incapable of coping with it, right? And it surely doesn’t mean that you do not get pleasure in that coping. We all do. Most people can handle dukkha in that respect. They may not understand it or like it but they can cope with it. They can balance their uncertainty and unhappiness with those sensual pleasure. Practicing Dhamma, however, is not about striking that perfect balance, i.e. a balance that never gets unbalanced. It is about removing that balancing act. That is when it goes from initially being something inspirational that aids in balancing/coping and becomes something that is undermining all of those false beliefs and understandings. That can be a very difficult thing to endure.

However, if someone is incredibly disenchanted, not only with what they understand, but is also with maintaining that coping, that sort of person may have an easier time letting things fall apart. Either way though, there will be discomfort. Look, everyone is different, but take a good look at just how deep you are letting the Dhamma go in who and what you are. Are you putting it in a place of risk or not? This isn't a challenge or anything. I’m being serious. Ask yourself just how close is it in terms of affecting your general mode of operating and understanding.

Edited for grammar
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
binocular
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by binocular »

lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:50 pmThank you Binocular, yes I have heard similar stuff in the past, including the spiral of relapse/change, although again I'm not quite sure how this could apply to motivating someone to practice (I'll read up on it though, thanks for the references).
The CBT and REBT approaches I referenced can apply (and motivate) in the sense that with them, one can systematically check whether one's beliefs about the practice are rational or not, helpful or not, and then change those beliefs as needed.
For example, if one strongly holds the belief "I must become enlightened in eight days, tops, using the meditation technique I've been using so far", then it could be a good idea to look into that belief a bit.

Also, along with the above, it's prudent to check whether one's beliefs about the Buddhist practice are actually in line with the Buddhist teachings. As in, for each of one's beliefs about the Buddhist practice, one should be able to have an exact reference to a sutta, meditation manual, or other Dhamma book or talk.
If the practice technique one is following is a mish-mash that one has ecclectically collected from a dozen sources, then what are the chances that this will produce the promised results?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Dan74-MkII »

I am hardly successful or a 'senior', but having been around the block a few times, it seems that what's important is disenchantment.

Nothing really works as well as disenchantment with samsara and faith that there IS a way out. Except for the knowledge that there IS.

And by samsara, I don't mean 'the world', I mean the habits, the patterns of thought, feeling and volition, the narratives that somehow coalesce to form the patchwork we call "me". The world is as it is. It is this 'me' that is the true samsara.

But paradoxically, in order to escape this samsara, one needs to see it very clearly. Unflichingly. After all, the Buddha's way is the way out of ignorance.
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Pseudobabble »

lostitude wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:19 pm Hello,

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?
For example, having accepted that life has nothing to offer in terms of pure happiness, than even times of pleasure in this world are tainted with suffering - yet caving in to all sorts of desires and pleasures in daily life.
Or, knowing that meditaton is the best way to achieve liberation from all this, and that it is illogical to possibly see it as a waste of time because anything other than meditation and/or working on one's understanding of the dhamma is worthless anyway - yet procrastinating one's sittings and being bored and lazy about practice.

I must confess that's exactly where I'm at right now, and where I've been for many months now, but more generally speaking I assume it must be a rather common difficulty, so I was wondering if that was a topic that the Buddha often discussed, and whether he gave any clues to effectively overcome this ambivalence.

Thanks.
Allow me to advise you to experience the death of a relative, injury, poverty, or otherwise unpleasant circumstances. It does wonders for for your motivation to practice.

Failing that, notice that your involvement in everyday life forces petty, irrelevant, and annoying complications on you constantly. That on its own makes me REALLY enjoy quiet sitting, away from the spew of garbage that constitutes most everyday procedures.

You also mentioned in a previous post that you can’t imagine anyone sitting for 5 hours without a sense of gratification driving them. Try working on your concentration - speaking as someone who has tried many types of gratification, nothing compares to the pleasure (yes, pleasure, pure, unadulterated, intensely gratifying, pleasure) of deep concentration.

Work hard, meditate hard, and take it easy.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Pseudobabble »

binocular wrote:If the practice technique one is following is a mish-mash that one has ecclectically collected from a dozen sources, then what are the chances that this will produce the promised results?
That depends entirely on whether one has understood the principles and functions which make any effective technique effective. Theres nothing wrong with mixing and matching if you know why it works.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Pseudobabble »

Dan74-MkII wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:37 pm I am hardly successful or a 'senior', but having been around the block a few times, it seems that what's important is disenchantment.

Nothing really works as well as disenchantment with samsara and faith that there IS a way out. Except for the knowledge that there IS.

And by samsara, I don't mean 'the world', I mean the habits, the patterns of thought, feeling and volition, the narratives that somehow coalesce to form the patchwork we call "me". The world is as it is. It is this 'me' that is the true samsara.

But paradoxically, in order to escape this samsara, one needs to see it very clearly. Unflichingly. After all, the Buddha's way is the way out of ignorance.
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
binocular
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by binocular »

Pseudobabble wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:38 am
binocular wrote:If the practice technique one is following is a mish-mash that one has ecclectically collected from a dozen sources, then what are the chances that this will produce the promised results?
That depends entirely on whether one has understood the principles and functions which make any effective technique effective. Theres nothing wrong with mixing and matching if you know why it works.
Hence the reply to my question that you quote is: Small.

Those who mix and match, based on an understanding of the principles and functions which make any effective technique effective, don't post (much) about their practice woes.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Pseudobabble
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Pseudobabble »

binocular wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:38 am
Pseudobabble wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:38 am
binocular wrote:If the practice technique one is following is a mish-mash that one has ecclectically collected from a dozen sources, then what are the chances that this will produce the promised results?
That depends entirely on whether one has understood the principles and functions which make any effective technique effective. Theres nothing wrong with mixing and matching if you know why it works.
Hence the reply to my question that you quote is: Small.

Those who mix and match, based on an understanding of the principles and functions which make any effective technique effective, don't post (much) about their practice woes.
Ah, yes, I see. Agreed.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
sunnat
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by sunnat »

quoted from "The Requisites of Enlightenment" by Ledi Sayadaw".
I hope this helps.

Chapter VI
"The mental powers (balāni) are thus called because “they overpower opposing mental states”. Or, as the
commentaries explain: they are powerful in the sense of being unshaken (akampanaṭṭhena) by opposition.
Parallel to the five faculties, there are five powers (bala):
1. Saddhā: faith
2. Viriya: energy
3. Sati: mindfulness
4. Samādhi: concentration
5. Paññā: wisdom
...
It is only developed energy (bhāvanā-viriya)—such as being satisfied with a minimum of sleep, being
always alert and active, being fearless, being bold and firm in living alone, being steadfast in meditative
practice— that can dispel laziness. In the context of the bodhipakkhiya-dhammā it is this developed energy
that should be acquired.
...
These five unwholesome opposing forces are: 1) taṇhā; 2) laziness (kosajja), or inability to take pains
(lassitude), or lack of fearlessness in Dhamma practice (paṭipatti), 3) absent-mindedness (muṭṭha-sacca),
4) distraction (vikkhepa), and 5) delusion (sammoha). The five things that can counteract and dispel them are
called powers (bala). If any one of these powers is weak and unable to dispel the respective opposite, than
meditation, be it tranquillity or insight, cannot be very successful as far as neyya individuals are concerned,
i.e., those in need of guidance.

Hence, at the present day, some persons can emerge out of the realm of taṇhā because of the strength of
their power of faith (saddhā-bala). They are rid of attachment to material things and to worldly dignities and
honours. But as they are deficient in the other four powers, they are unable to rise above the stage of
contentment (santuṭṭhi) with their living conditions.
...
, whenever one is deficient in any one of the powers, one cannot rise above the realm of the
respective opposite force."
liseinwoodacre
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by liseinwoodacre »

I don’t know if this post will be allowed, but, when I searched Google for “how does Buddhism deal with ambivalence,” this thread is what came up. I am only writing this because I am concerned about the experience of other people who might search for this topic.

I sat at Spirit Rock for years. I know many people don’t consider that “real Theravada“ but it taught me why so many non-monastic Buddhist teachers become psychotherapists. The answer is obvious if you read Jack Kornfield.

Culture matters. If you were a monk in a Burmese monastery, you wouldn’t be asking this question. If you were a layperson in an ancient Indian village, you wouldn’t be asking this question. So why would the Buddha have answered it? The word itself wasn’t coined until 1910!

I find all the answers unsatisfactory. Including the references to CBT and RET. Focusing on belief just evades the real problem of ambivalence. As a person whose middle name is ambivalence, I only know two methods that help, and they are both rooted in the work of Carl Rogers. One is Gendlin’s Focusing, which used to be very popular among Bay Area Buddhists, but is difficult to do without a companion. You can take a Zoom class via the Focusing Institute.

The other is Motivational Interviewing, which sees ambivalence as the central problem of contemporary human beings. There are now three self-help-oriented books on MI, and one has ambivalence in the subtitle. I highly recommend that non-monastics who experience ambivalence look beyond the suttas for answers.
befriend
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by befriend »

Practice the gradual path, have thoughts with a positive outlook have speech with a positive outlook and do bodily actions that are positive. Buddha says this in the book of threes in anguttara nikaya. Giving up bad thoughts bad speech and bad actions. Behaving in this fashion one will feel heavenly and content with just this good mind body and speech. After this personal heavenly realm buddha discusses drawbacks to sensuality renunciation in sensory indulgence. THEN he gives a talk on the 4 noble truths. Ones citta should be conditioned with the wholesome he didn't teach Rahula about meditating on the elements until he was very moral. Rahulas first instructions were to not do what is afflictive by body speech or mind and do what is not afflictive and rejoice in it. Just my opinion but I think if you focus on Dukkha and impermanence without cultivating right effort. It gets just beleif based and confusing you need some results first. And slowly gain confidence in goodness then the mind will be free from remorse and happy it will naturally let go of sense pleasures and turn towards wisdom gradually remember the path is wisdom AND compassion.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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