Ambivalence

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
perkele
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by perkele »

lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pm Thanks a lot everyone for your kind answers. I have follow-up questions/comments:
JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:44 am It's not very helpful in terms of concrete advice, but on at least 5 occasions the Buddha recommended people "practise as if your head was on fire!"
This makes perfect sense, but how do you maintain such a motivated mood for ever?
I think the Buddha did not mean that one should maintain such a motivated mood forever, and I think that would be impossible. I guess the motivated mood would ideally end when it has reached its purpose (i.e. nibbana).
lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pm I know I want nibbana, I'm no longer scared of it, I perfectly understand that my existence is just an accidental side-effect of the workings of this universe, that everything I feel and think is ultimately a by-product of natural selection, that I'm nothing more than a more developped expression of my own DNA, i.e. a string of atoms.
Really? You are that? And what is nibbana?
lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pmYet I can't bring myself to practice, I'm convinced that I have more chances of winning the lottery than stumbling upon any fruitful meditative state (because I can't help thinking meditation is all about chance, fumbling in the dark until you are lucky enough to find that needle in those massive haystacks). That's what I mean by ambivalence.
Meditation is not the only kind of "buddhist practice", and maybe not of any use at all until a certain point where one has cleaned one's room and is able to "put aside greed & distress with reference to the world". Can you really at any point "put aside greed & distress with reference to the world" and thus really practice meditation as it is described in the suttas?
I know that I can't. I have other stuff to do, always dealing with greed and distress of one kind or another that I just cannot put aside.
Those quiet moments when "sitting in meditation" would be really possible to me usually happen when there is some kind of great "disappointment", i.e. some sort of unusual unexpected suffering, and resulting hopelessness. Maybe similar as you say that when you are depressed might be the only time where you could imagine sitting still for a long time without hope for any kind of gratification. That "hopelessness" is the "setting aside grief and distress with reference to the world", or it could be, I think, if developed correctly.

I think in order to practice meditation one has to first be quite hopeless (but also distress-less to some extent: not having reason for a bad conscience concerning this or that, and not worrying too much that there is no hope). Then one acquires a taste for that hopelessness (non-craving), recognize it as something peaceful. And then the goal is to attain complete hopelessness. If one is trying to "attain" something other than complete peaceful hopelessness, by practicing meditation, then what should one really get out of sitting around?
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

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lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pm To be frank I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly sit for 5 hours straight without any sense of gratification pushing them to do so.
The very rare occasions where I could do that would be when I feel so depressed that I just want life to stop, and I'd rather turn into that wall in front of me than go on with this life, and I come to envy that wall and those things around me that feel nothing. Basically being suicidal, that's the only frame of mind that could lead me to sit for 5 hours without hoping for any gratification. And even then you could say that the gratification lies in the avoidance provided by meditation.
The point I was trying to make was that some people ONLY do it for gratification. They think that is why they are supposed to do it. They do not understand any peaceful abiding, but do it in an attempt to enjoy the sensual aspect. The physical comfort. Furthermore they may even be doing it just to relieve stress and not necessarily penetrate any deeper understanding of how things are. Eventually that gets old and the sensual aspect of sitting and breathing will stop being gratifying. Even people who have been practicing for 40 something years have had their entire practice collapse right in front of them. So you know what, if it doesn’t give you anything, don’t waste your time with it now. There are many more things you can be doing with your time in terms of practice.
lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pm
Based on your post in this thread and things you have said in the past, I do not think it means that you are necessarily ambivalent about the goals of the practice, I just think you have to restructure your reasons for practicing, and perhaps put the Dhamma in a more general and significant place away from ordinary things. Again, I think it is totally normal to lose track of its position.
Could you rephrase this is more concrete terms? I'm not sure I follow.
Like I think I said lower down in the other post, it is easy for our practice to become just another thing we look to for “generic” gratification, but there will be times where even that doesn’t give us anything. Sometimes its greatness doesn’t register. I posed a few questions in my post. Reflecting on those may help reset things. Let me know if those questions makes sense.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
perkele
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by perkele »

perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:48 pm ..., and maybe not of any use at all until a certain point where one has cleaned one's room and ...
Btw., this is a current picture of my room: full of hope, and therfore dirt. Where should I even find a place to sit in meditation?
:shrug: :thinking:
IMG_20190410_044930.jpg
Soon I will have to move out here. You can see the hope for a new existence someplace else lingering here in this picture.
I always find it difficult to clean up my room while I have no intention to keep it that way.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:03 pm Where should I even find a place to sit in meditation?
:shrug: :thinking:
Where do you sleep? Sit on that?

I don't do formal meditation often, but the last time I did was underneath trees.

In short, there are many possibilities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
perkele
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by perkele »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:24 pm Greetings,
perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:03 pm Where should I even find a place to sit in meditation?
:shrug: :thinking:
Where do you sleep? Sit on that?

I don't do formal meditation often, but the last time I did was underneath trees.

In short, there are many possibilities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
My bed is to the left, out of picture (and also quite full of stuff).

I was just trying to be funny, illustrating how it is impossible to sit in meditation without setting aside [at least for a moment] greed and distress with regard to the world.

I think if I could put aside greed and distress with regard to the world for a moment (clear just enough room to sit at least, without any hope for anything more and accumulating more stuff around), I could find a place to meditate anywhere.

But some preliminary practice (e.g. cleaning up my room, at least a little bit, without any other purpose) would first be necessary for that.

Maybe my similes are not working so well for everyone. :rolleye:
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Sam Vara
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Sam Vara »

perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:42 pm
Maybe my similes are not working so well for everyone. :rolleye:
They are for me! I thought your earlier post on "putting aside greed and distress" was excellent.
:anjali:
lostitude
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by lostitude »

Thanks everyone againt for your feedback.
dharmacorps wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:47 pm
Oh this thread definitely concerns me, friend. I deal with these issues too.
Sorry I meant "you" as in no one in particular :) I meant to say that advanced practitioners are probably almost constantly focused anyway so it is easy for them to tell others they should practice as if their head was on fire and other sorts of similes.
Fear mongering in monotheism is "do this or your will get punished by god for eternity". In Buddhism, none of that applies. The Buddha gives a roadmap of how things work; if you see this and have faith, and want to practice to escape samsara, then he gives a path. If you don't see what he is describing or don't feel motivated or inspired then that is basically up to you. Practice or don't-- no god is going to punish you. If, on the other hand, you see the Buddha's message that we bounce around samsara for unimaginable eons not going anywhere ultimately and suffering all the while, then you may feel some fear about being trapped in that situation-- samvega. That is what spurs your practice.
Then to me there is no diference, since the end result is the same. I both cases you practice out of fear. Fear of punishment in one case, fear of samsaric hell in the other. You're scared and so you absolutely want to get results in your practice and you start panicking because you can see your meditation is not going anywhere, etc. I understand how it can be conducive to motivation though.
binocular wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:04 pm
I remember reading once that even Albert Ellis
Thank you, that's very interesting!
perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:48 pm
lostitude wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:02 pm I know I want nibbana, I'm no longer scared of it, I perfectly understand that my existence is just an accidental side-effect of the workings of this universe, that everything I feel and think is ultimately a by-product of natural selection, that I'm nothing more than a more developped expression of my own DNA, i.e. a string of atoms.
Really? You are that? And what is nibbana?
Yes, even from a purely rational, non-buddhist perspective, I know this is exactly what I am. I have discussed this with completely atheist, non-religious people who are not into buddhism and who see it in the exact same way.
As for nibbana, what (I hope) it is, is simply non-existence, or at least the extinction of sufferings and/or feelings altogether. And I'd be perfectly fine with ceasing to exist.
Those quiet moments when "sitting in meditation" would be really possible to me usually happen when there is some kind of great "disappointment", i.e. some sort of unusual unexpected suffering, and resulting hopelessness. Maybe similar as you say that when you are depressed might be the only time where you could imagine sitting still for a long time without hope for any kind of gratification. That "hopelessness" is the "setting aside grief and distress with reference to the world", or it could be, I think, if developed correctly.
I can identify 100 % with that. But I'm rarely that depressed (should I say unfortufately?).

SDC wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:50 pm Eventually that gets old and the sensual aspect of sitting and breathing will stop being gratifying. Even people who have been practicing for 40 something years have had their entire practice collapse right in front of them.
That's scary. Do you mean Jhana junkies?
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:50 pm Like I think I said lower down in the other post, it is easy for our practice to become just another thing we look to for “generic” gratification, but there will be times where even that doesn’t give us anything. Sometimes its greatness doesn’t register. I posed a few questions in my post. Reflecting on those may help reset things. Let me know if those questions makes sense.
Thanks for the questions, I did see them, but I didn't quite understand where they were supposed to lead me. For example:
What would it mean to you to be successful on the path? To reach nibbana.
How does the teaching apply to you and your life?I don't understand the question. You mean, to what extent is it applicable, or to what extent do I try to apply it, or...?
How do you want it to apply? Ideally I'd want a contextualized, customized, step-by-step guide but that doesn't seem to really exist.
perkele wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:03 pm

Btw., this is a current picture of my room
Mine looked just like yours about a week ago. Interesting correlations to make between messy rooms, depressive states, and meditation :)
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DooDoot
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by DooDoot »

Hi lostitude. Personally, I think it is not an easy thing to cross over from sensual pleasures to meditation pleasure. If the mind has not lost intoxication with worldly pleasures then this 'ambivalence' can occur in meditation; which is basically getting bored. The mind gets bored because it still has a significant tendency towards sensual or worldly pleasures.

In the suttas, there is no expectation laypeople derive their pleasure from meditation. Practising Buddhism should be joyful therefore we should try to do practises that bring joy, even if it is generosity, charity, metta, etc.

Kind regards
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Srilankaputra
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Srilankaputra »

lostitude wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:19 pm Hello,

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?
For example, having accepted that life has nothing to offer in terms of pure happiness, than even times of pleasure in this world are tainted with suffering - yet caving in to all sorts of desires and pleasures in daily life.
Or, knowing that meditaton is the best way to achieve liberation from all this, and that it is illogical to possibly see it as a waste of time because anything other than meditation and/or working on one's understanding of the dhamma is worthless anyway - yet procrastinating one's sittings and being bored and lazy about practice.

I must confess that's exactly where I'm at right now, and where I've been for many months now, but more generally speaking I assume it must be a rather common difficulty, so I was wondering if that was a topic that the Buddha often discussed, and whether he gave any clues to effectively overcome this ambivalence.

Thanks.
Ajahn chah said, if you haven't gone against the grain you have never practiced. The path goes through the obstacles. You yourself have to find a way to overcome the obstacle. That's how wisdom grows.

If you don't have access to a teacher you have faith in, the suttas can be your best friend in need. When I am at a loss, I always find a solution in the suttas.

It might be also helpful to note that earlier you had motivation to practice but that became impermant now you have the conditions plaguing you now. But that too is impermant. Have faith. Keep on practicing. This too will pass.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

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lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:44 am
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:50 pm Eventually that gets old and the sensual aspect of sitting and breathing will stop being gratifying. Even people who have been practicing for 40 something years have had their entire practice collapse right in front of them.
That's scary. Do you mean Jhana junkies?
Not even. If someone were to abide in jhana without doing anything further, that would still be wholesome and rewarding.

I’m talking about people who follow an ultimately useless technique that gives them nothing, but ride their determination nevertheless. They never really knew what they were supposed to be getting from it, but that never lead them to backtrack to something perhaps more effective. I tend to think there are many practitioners that go head on and never question what they are doing. I think that is a very dangerous thing to do and applaud you for being honest about your difficulties.
lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:44 am How do you want it to apply? Ideally I'd want a contextualized, customized, step-by-step guide but that doesn't seem to really exist.
Well, you are the guide. What I mean is that whatever state you find yourself in, that will determine the level of work that is required. And that is different for everyone. The suttas tell you how to turn on that “with the grain” trajectory, and moving against the grain gives an entire different perspective to sort out. That is the eightfold path in a nutshell. All of those steps are a direction against the normal grain of following desire and delight to gratification of one’s existence. Making that turn takes effort, and may not actually be fully complete until some very high level of development, so it shouldn’t discourage anyone if they are struggling to do so. Struggling to end suffering is the practice!!!! But once there is some degree of familiarity as to what constitutes “against the grain”, it can be accessed more and more, i.e. the practice of mindfulness. The suttas give you the tools to navigate it. Teachers give you the tools to navigate it. But there is no way to give you the step by step instructions because the act of doing it must take priority over the instructions, and no matter how explicit the instructions, once one is contemplating these things, there has to be the ability to attend with a degree of finesse, creativity and subtly that cannot always be planned ahead of time.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

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Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:14 pm Ajahn chah said, if you haven't gone against the grain you have never practiced. The path goes through the obstacles. You yourself have to find a way to overcome the obstacle. That's how wisdom grows.

If you don't have access to a teacher you have faith in, the suttas can be your best friend in need. When I am at a loss, I always find a solution in the suttas.

It might be also helpful to note that earlier you had motivation to practice but that became impermant now you have the conditions plaguing you now. But that too is impermant. Have faith. Keep on practicing. This too will pass.
Solid post!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by Dan74-MkII »

I think this is a great topic (kinda belongs more in Personal experience though?) and I hope experienced people post what has worked for them, as well as helpful teachings, so that we can all improve in this regard.

One of the things that has worked best for me, was having a Sangha to sit with or even a dedicated friend. So initially we had a very active group led by a teacher, who was quite inspirational and gave some wonderful advice. We met regularly, did retreats together and I sat at home in between. This maintained a very energetic positive momentum.

Then I also had a friend who was studying at the same Uni and lived right next to it. So I would leave home one hour earlier and go to her place and we sat together. This worked well too.

Then there was a Soto Zen teacher who started a group at the Uni. I actually had quite a few little quibbles with his teachings (and he's now become an Orthodox priest), but in actuallity his group was a wonderful practice opportunity and was where my practice was deepest.

So all in all, groups do it for me.

_/|\_
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SDC
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Re: Ambivalence

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Dan74-MkII wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:13 pm One of the things that has worked best for me, was having a Sangha to sit with or even a dedicated friend. So initially we had a very active group led by a teacher, who was quite inspirational and gave some wonderful advice. We met regularly, did retreats together and I sat at home in between. This maintained a very energetic positive momentum.

Then I also had a friend who was studying at the same Uni and lived right next to it. So I would leave home one hour earlier and go to her place and we sat together. This worked well too.
I couldn't agree more. It isn't always possible to have such a companion, but it is truly priceless if you do. Even if only for a short time.
SN 45.2 wrote:As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."

"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path...
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Ambivalence

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lostitude wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:44 am
binocular wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:04 pm
I remember reading once that even Albert Ellis
Thank you, that's very interesting!
Also take a look at this one, from CBT:
HOW TO CHANGE NEGATIVE CORE BELIEFS: A STRAIGHTFORWARD GUIDE TO COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY (CBT):
You’ve probably had the negative core belief for a long time, so change usually takes a period of a few months concerted work. You’re unlikely to be there yet.
1. a few months
of
2. concerted
3. work.
Do this for 4-6 months. Patterns that you’ve had for a long time take more than 5 mins to change.
4-6 months.

This is the time frame that a psychologist predicts will take to change a long-held unhelpful belief, provided that in that time, one puts in concerted work.
That can give you some idea of how to set your expectations about change.

Mine looked just like yours about a week ago. Interesting correlations to make between messy rooms, depressive states, and meditation
If one cannot even keep one's room tidy, how is one supposed to do much of anything else ...
:tongue:
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Ambivalence

Post by binocular »

SDC wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:25 pmBut there is no way to give you the step by step instructions because the act of doing it must take priority over the instructions, and no matter how explicit the instructions, once one is contemplating these things, there has to be the ability to attend with a degree of finesse, creativity and subtly that cannot always be planned ahead of time.
Many things are such that one can only see what works and what doesn't when one actually works on it, tries this and that.
This is true for worldly skills, like learning a music instrument or a vocational skill, and for religious/spiritual practice.

It takes practice in order to become comfortable with adjusting as one goes along; that kind of flexibility doesn't seem to come naturally.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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