Ambivalence

[lostitude]

Hello,

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?
For example, having accepted that life has nothing to offer in terms of pure happiness, than even times of pleasure in this world are tainted with suffering - yet caving in to all sorts of desires and pleasures in daily life.
Or, knowing that meditaton is the best way to achieve liberation from all this, and that it is illogical to possibly see it as a waste of time because anything other than meditation and/or working on one's understanding of the dhamma is worthless anyway - yet procrastinating one's sittings and being bored and lazy about practice.

I must confess that's exactly where I'm at right now, and where I've been for many months now, but more generally speaking I assume it must be a rather common difficulty, so I was wondering if that was a topic that the Buddha often discussed, and whether he gave any clues to effectively overcome this ambivalence.

Thanks.

[JamesTheGiant]

It's not very helpful in terms of concrete advice, but on at least 5 occasions the Buddha recommended people "practise as if your head was on fire!"

[SDC]

It is inevitable that our practice - or aspects of practice - will once and while become yet another thing that we attempt to use for gratification. For instance, some people use meditation to feel good or read to entertain oneself. The problem with that though, is that eventually these things stop being gratifying. I tend to think ambivalence, in these cases, is when we are no longer interested in using the practice as a means to gratification. This is totally normal.

Based on your post in this thread and things you have said in the past, I do not think it means that you are necessarily ambivalent about the goals of the practice, I just think you have to restructure your reasons for practicing, and perhaps put the Dhamma in a more general and significant place away from ordinary things. Again, I think it is totally normal to lose track of its position.

I would suggest doing some reflection on what the Dhamma means to you. What would it mean to you to be successful on the path? How does the teaching apply to you and your life? How do you want it to apply? I know that you have answers to all of these questions, but I think it is a good reset to go over it again every once in a while. The tides of desire are sinister. Even the most wholesome things can get re-positioned in places where you would use them for the wrong things. It is a constant battle.

This is just what came to mind. I apologize if I missed the mark.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Lostitude,

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?

I would recommend setting aside the term "ambivalence" in order to determine whether you're really talking about factors like "dispassion" and "equanimity" which are good... or factors like "sloth-and-torpor", "aversion", "greed" and "delusion" which are not good.

Metta,
Paul.

[binocular]

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?
For example, having accepted that life has nothing to offer in terms of pure happiness, than even times of pleasure in this world are tainted with suffering - yet caving in to all sorts of desires and pleasures in daily life.
Or, knowing that meditaton is the best way to achieve liberation from all this, and that it is illogical to possibly see it as a waste of time because anything other than meditation and/or working on one's understanding of the dhamma is worthless anyway - yet procrastinating one's sittings and being bored and lazy about practice.

I must confess that's exactly where I'm at right now, and where I've been for many months now, but more generally speaking I assume it must be a rather common difficulty, so I was wondering if that was a topic that the Buddha often discussed, and whether he gave any clues to effectively overcome this ambivalence.

The things you describe tend to be addressed under the heading of "hindrances" (sometimes also called "obstacles").
Some examples:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_64.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el026.html


But what this approach does is that it takes for granted that the person wants the goal of the practice, has decided to be committed to it, has decided that what the Buddhist teachings say is The Truth, and that they are merely having some troubles on the path. Like being on the road from Paris to Vienna, but having a flat tire or running out of gas, but still being certain that one wants to get to Vienna.
I think the issue for many people is, though, that they're not exactly sure they want to go to Vienna at all; they're sure they want to leave Paris, but whether it is to go to Hamburg, or to Madrid, or to London, or to Hong Kong, that they don't know. In other words, they're not sure whether they want the goal of the Buddhist practice, Nibbana.

Of course, it stands to reason whether a beginner can even meaningfully wish for Nibbana at all, given that one has to have some specific knowledge and experience to have at least some half-way dim idea of what Nibbbana is.

Personally, I don't think that the charge of being subject to or indulging in hindrances applies to beginners/newcomers/outsiders to Buddhism.

[sunnat]

Often you'll find that the way to deal with a difficulty, like the hindrances, for example doubt, is to develop its opposite. An opposite of doubt is faith. Faith (correct faith, not blind or based on some greed or fear) is developed by walking on the path. I don't mean intellectualise the path and argue or think yourself along it but actually have the direct experience of it. As you do so it proves itself and you develop faith and this helps you over the road blocks of doubt. With sloth: develop energy. Greed: develop renunciation. Ill-will: develop loving kindness. Restlessness, worry, anxiety: develop concentration.
I find the practice of anapana meditation, or mindfulness of in and out breathing, very good for concentrating the mind. Metta meditation, or meditation of loving kindness, helps me dissolve hatred.

[2600htz]

Hello,

How does buddhism deal with ambivalence?
For example, having accepted that life has nothing to offer in terms of pure happiness, than even times of pleasure in this world are tainted with suffering - yet caving in to all sorts of desires and pleasures in daily life.
Or, knowing that meditaton is the best way to achieve liberation from all this, and that it is illogical to possibly see it as a waste of time because anything other than meditation and/or working on one's understanding of the dhamma is worthless anyway - yet procrastinating one's sittings and being bored and lazy about practice.

I must confess that's exactly where I'm at right now, and where I've been for many months now, but more generally speaking I assume it must be a rather common difficulty, so I was wondering if that was a topic that the Buddha often discussed, and whether he gave any clues to effectively overcome this ambivalence.

Thanks.

Hello:

I think there is a misunderstanding. The more advanced you are with the practice, the more fun, pleasure and happiness you should experience in life.
The whole: Life is suffering, everything its worthless, i don´t want to meditate, im bored, im lazy. This are just hindrances. Is a mind with craving at the moment. Its not something where you should dwell or pay attention.

Regards.

[dharmacorps]

It may be helpful to reflect on the preciousness of human birth; and that death can come at any time. Are you ready to die and be reborn where ever you may go according to your kamma? If not, then there is work left to be done. You've been fortunate enough to be born during a time when the teachings of a Buddha are alive, and fortunate enough to encounter those teachings. Otherwise, we would have no hope of liberation.

[lostitude]

Thanks a lot everyone for your kind answers. I have follow-up questions/comments:

It's not very helpful in terms of concrete advice, but on at least 5 occasions the Buddha recommended people "practise as if your head was on fire!"

This makes perfect sense, but how do you maintain such a motivated mood for ever?

It is inevitable that our practice - or aspects of practice - will once and while become yet another thing that we attempt to use for gratification. For instance, some people use meditation to feel good or read to entertain oneself.

To be frank I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly sit for 5 hours straight without any sense of gratification pushing them to do so.
The very rare occasions where I could do that would be when I feel so depressed that I just want life to stop, and I'd rather turn into that wall in front of me than go on with this life, and I come to envy that wall and those things around me that feel nothing. Basically being suicidal, that's the only frame of mind that could lead me to sit for 5 hours without hoping for any gratification. And even then you could say that the gratification lies in the avoidance provided by meditation.

Based on your post in this thread and things you have said in the past, I do not think it means that you are necessarily ambivalent about the goals of the practice, I just think you have to restructure your reasons for practicing, and perhaps put the Dhamma in a more general and significant place away from ordinary things. Again, I think it is totally normal to lose track of its position.

Could you rephrase this is more concrete terms? I'm not sure I follow.

I would recommend setting aside the term "ambivalence" in order to determine whether you're really talking about factors like "dispassion" and "equanimity" which are good... or factors like "sloth-and-torpor", "aversion", "greed" and "delusion" which are not good.

By ambivalence (does this word even exist in English? I use it in French but didn't even bother to check if it's the same in English), I mean the presence of all the above at the same time. I know I want nibbana, I'm no longer scared of it, I perfectly understand that my existence is just an accidental side-effect of the workings of this universe, that everything I feel and think is ultimately a by-product of natural selection, that I'm nothing more than a more developped expression of my own DNA, i.e. a string of atoms. Yet I can't bring myself to practice, I'm convinced that I have more chances of winning the lottery than stumbling upon any fruitful meditative state (because I can't help thinking meditation is all about chance, fumbling in the dark until you are lucky enough to find that needle in those massive haystacks). That's what I mean by ambivalence.

But what this approach does is that it takes for granted that the person wants the goal of the practice, has decided to be committed to it, has decided that what the Buddhist teachings say is The Truth, and that they are merely having some troubles on the path. Like being on the road from Paris to Vienna, but having a flat tire or running out of gas, but still being certain that one wants to get to Vienna.
I think the issue for many people is, though, that they're not exactly sure they want to go to Vienna at all; they're sure they want to leave Paris, but whether it is to go to Hamburg, or to Madrid, or to London, or to Hong Kong, that they don't know. In other words, they're not sure whether they want the goal of the Buddhist practice, Nibbana.

I don't think the latter applies to me, but I agree it must often be a problem for anyone just beginning to delve into buddhism.

Often you'll find that the way to deal with a difficulty, like the hindrances, for example doubt, is to develop its opposite.

It's funny because that's exacly how ambivalence is dealt with in CBT, when you have someone who wants to change their behavior but is dissuaded from making the effort for all sorts of reasons. But I didon't consider it within a Buddhist framework. It's interesting, although the exact way to go about it from a buddhist perspective is unclear to me.

An opposite of doubt is faith. Faith (correct faith, not blind or based on some greed or fear) is developed by walking on the path. I don't mean intellectualise the path and argue or think yourself along it but actually have the direct experience of it. As you do so it proves itself and you develop faith and this helps you over the road blocks of doubt.

I'm willing to accept this although I don't feel this concerns me.

With sloth: develop energy.

That sounds a bit simplistic, sorry! Sloth would apply to me but I don't see how developping energy (how?) would convince me to sit and meditate.

Greed: develop renunciation. Ill-will: develop loving kindness. Restlessness, worry, anxiety: develop concentration.

It makes sense, but "you just have to do this" is usually not enough. I see this in patients who want to lose weight, and their doctor tells them "oh it's easy, you just have to eat less". Yet they don't eat less. I think that's the problem. For some reason the solution is known but not applied.

I think there is a misunderstanding. The more advanced you are with the practice, the more fun, pleasure and happiness you should experience in life.
The whole: Life is suffering, everything its worthless, i don´t want to meditate, im bored, im lazy. This are just hindrances. Is a mind with craving at the moment. Its not something where you should dwell or pay attention.

To be honest I have serious problems with your explanations. You must definitely be a lot more advanced than me in your practice (after all, you can't possibly be less advanced), but what you just wrote does not make any sense at all to me. How can you find life is fun and at the same time want to quit it? Because to me that's what nibbana is about. I read on this very forum that the Buddha said something to the effect that even one second of life was worse than (I can't remember what, something about a bad smell?), basically that life is crap.

It may be helpful to reflect on the preciousness of human birth; and that death can come at any time. Are you ready to die and be reborn where ever you may go according to your kamma? If not, then there is work left to be done. You've been fortunate enough to be born during a time when the teachings of a Buddha are alive, and fortunate enough to encounter those teachings. Otherwise, we would have no hope of liberation.

But then this is fear-mongering, similar to the threat of hell in monotheism, and I can't imagine my practice thriving in fear and anxiety, to be honest. This sense of urgency seems to contradict the equanimity that buddhism is calling for. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On top of that (and this is similar to what James the giant was saying), even if it's a productive state of mind to be in, how do you maintain it for more than a couple of hours? certainly you can't live in constant fear, nor can you live in constant rememberance that there is nothing more valuable than meditation. Unless of course you are already super advanced, in which case this whole thread would no longer concern you anyway.

[dharmacorps]

But then this is fear-mongering, similar to the threat of hell in monotheism, and I can't imagine my practice thriving in fear and anxiety, to be honest. This sense of urgency seems to contradict the equanimity that buddhism is calling for. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On top of that (and this is similar to what James the giant was saying), even if it's a productive state of mind to be in, how do you maintain it for more than a couple of hours? certainly you can't live in constant fear, nor can you live in constant rememberance that there is nothing more valuable than meditation. Unless of course you are already super advanced, in which case this whole thread would no longer concern you anyway.

Oh this thread definitely concerns me, friend. I deal with these issues too.

Fear mongering in monotheism is "do this or your will get punished by god for eternity". In Buddhism, none of that applies. The Buddha gives a roadmap of how things work; if you see this and have faith, and want to practice to escape samsara, then he gives a path. If you don't see what he is describing or don't feel motivated or inspired then that is basically up to you. Practice or don't-- no god is going to punish you. If, on the other hand, you see the Buddha's message that we bounce around samsara for unimaginable eons not going anywhere ultimately and suffering all the while, then you may feel some fear about being trapped in that situation-- samvega. That is what spurs your practice.

But I start with the presumption as you are on DW that you have some interest in Buddhism and it's practice, so I gave some ideas to inspire you and address your concern about ambivalence.

That said, of course, especially as lay people, it is difficult to maintain vigilance because we are pulled in many directions.

[cappuccino]

progress won't come in a great leap

it comes from thousands of steps

it comes from filling a jar by drops of water

[cappuccino]

Don’t underestimate merit
(‘It won’t amount to much’)
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With merit — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the enlightened one fills himself full.
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu

[binocular]

It's funny because that's exacly how ambivalence is dealt with in CBT, when you have someone who wants to change their behavior but is dissuaded from making the effort for all sorts of reasons. But I didon't consider it within a Buddhist framework. It's interesting, although the exact way to go about it from a buddhist perspective is unclear to me.
/.../
It makes sense, but "you just have to do this" is usually not enough. I see this in patients who want to lose weight, and their doctor tells them "oh it's easy, you just have to eat less". Yet they don't eat less. I think that's the problem. For some reason the solution is known but not applied.

I remember reading once that even Albert Ellis, or someone else from the REBT or CBT camp explained this in roundabout as follows:
Knowing something is not enough, one has to increase and strengthen its presence in one's mind, by systematically repeating it over and over again.

It was then further explained how this new belief is all alone in the middle of the old ones, easily gets drowned out by the old ones, that's why this new belief (which is accurate, but weak) needs to be strenghtened by repetition, so that it can actually take root and serve as a basis for consistent action.


This was the closest I could find online:

Techniques for Disputing Irrational Beliefs (DIBS)
Albert Ellis, Ph.D.

If you want to increase your rationality and reduce your self-defeating irrational beliefs, you can spend at least ten minutes every day asking yourself the following questions and carefully thinking through (not merely parroting!) the healthy answers. Write down each ques-tion and your answers to it on a piece of paper; or else record the questions and your an-swers on a tape recorder.
/.../
You can take any one of your major irrational beliefs—your shoulds, oughts, or musts—and spend at least ten minutes every day, often for a period of several weeks, actively and vigorously disputing this belief. To help keep yourself devoting this amount of time to the DIBS method of rational disputing, you may use operant conditioning or self-management methods (originated by B.F. Skinner, David Premack, Marvin Goldfried, and other psychologists). Select some activity that you highly enjoy that you tend to do every day—such as reading, eating, television viewing, exercising, or social contact with friends. Use this activity as a reinforcer or reward by ONLY allowing yourself to engage in it AFTER you have practiced Disputing Irrational Beliefs (DIBS) for at least ten minutes that day. Otherwise, no reward!
In addition, you may penalize yourself every single day you do NOT use DIBS for at least ten minutes.
/.../
Disputing (D) your dysfunctional or irrational Beliefs (iBs) is one of the most effective of REBT techniques. But it is still often ineffective, because you can easily and very strongly hold on to an iB (such as, “I absolutely must be loved by so-and-so, and it’s awful and I am an inadequate person when he/she does not love me!”). When you question and challenge this iB you often can come up with an Effective New Philosophy (E) that is accurate but weak: “I guess that there is no reason why so-and-so must love me, because there are other people who will love me when so-and-so does not. I can therefore be reasonably happy without his/her love.” Believing this almost Effective New Philosophy, and believing it lightly, you can still easily and forcefully believe, “Even though it is not awful and terrible when so-and-so does not love me, it really is! No matter what, I still need his/her affection!”

Weak, or even moderately strong, Disputing will therefore often not work very well to help you truly disbelieve some of your powerful and long-held iB’s; while vigorous, persistent Disputing is more likely to work.
One way to do highly powerful, vigorous Disputing is to use a tape recorder and to state one of your strong irrational Beliefs into it, such as, “If I fail this job interview I am about to have, that will prove that I’ll never get a good job and that I might as well apply only for low-level positions!”
Figure out several Disputes to this iB and strongly present them on this same tape. For example: “Even if I do poorly on this interview, that will only show that I failed this time, but will never show that I’ll always fail and can never do well in other interviews. Maybe they’ll still hire me for the job. But if they don’t, I can learn by my mistakes, can do better in other interviews, and can finally get the kind of job that I want.”

Listen to your Disputing on tape. Let other people, including your therapist or members of your therapy group, listen to it. Do it over in a more forceful and vigorous manner and let them listen to it again, to see if you are disputing more forcefully, until they agree that you are getting better at doing it. Keep listening to it until you see that you are able to convince yourself and others that you are becoming more powerful and more convincing.

http://albertellis.org/rebt-pamphlets/T ... eliefs.pdf
(emphases mine)

There's something similar in Buddhism with all the regular chanting and repetition.

[perkele]

Don’t underestimate merit
(‘It won’t amount to much’)
A water jar fills,
even with water
falling in drops.
With merit — even if
bit
by
bit,
habitually —
the enlightened one fills himself full.
- Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Sadhu!

[2600htz]

Hello Lostitude:

Imagine you take some savings, buy a gift, go to an hospital, and give the present to some terminal cancer pacient.
You probably (like most people), would feel a lot of happiness, excitement and fun. Why?, because you know you did something good and the receiver became happy.

Yes, you also realise: "he is going to die, i too am going to die,he is in pain, life is fragile, beings are subject to disease" but if you accept it, its not going to take away the feeling of happiness of that good action.

This is something the Buddha adviced, actually the practice of Dana (giving) was the first step in a gradual training, it came before formal meditation, so people understand what letting go and the dhamma is all about, without focusing so much on "the bad side".

The Buddha taught both sides of the coin, but you have to take in consideration that a lot of his disciples at that time where royalty and wealthy people (people used to having beautiful girls, luxury and being charmed with "the pleasures of life"), or monks who where renouncing the world,so a discourse on the negative aspects of reality was better to balance their minds.

Regards.

I think there is a misunderstanding. The more advanced you are with the practice, the more fun, pleasure and happiness you should experience in life.
The whole: Life is suffering, everything its worthless, i don´t want to meditate, im bored, im lazy. This are just hindrances. Is a mind with craving at the moment. Its not something where you should dwell or pay attention.

To be honest I have serious problems with your explanations. You must definitely be a lot more advanced than me in your practice (after all, you can't possibly be less advanced), but what you just wrote does not make any sense at all to me. How can you find life is fun and at the same time want to quit it? Because to me that's what nibbana is about. I read on this very forum that the Buddha said something to the effect that even one second of life was worse than (I can't remember what, something about a bad smell?), basically that life is crap.