Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

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Sam Vara
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

form wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 11:13 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 10:43 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:25 am Wasn’t there also a monk who was infatuated with the Buddha’s looks within the suttas? Sounds pretty gay or bi to me.
the article starts with the story of Soreyya, a gay man who craved a monk
And he later became an arahat.
This is from which sutta?
More from DR on Soreyya here:

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... reyya.html

(It was in fact Kaccayana's good looks, if it's the same one...)
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by robertk »

form wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 11:13 am
robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 10:43 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:25 am Wasn’t there also a monk who was infatuated with the Buddha’s looks within the suttas? Sounds pretty gay or bi to me.
the article starts with the story of Soreyya, a gay man who craved a monk
And he later became an arahat.
This is from which sutta?
It is from Dhammapada commentary.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XgRuNAKMY2
While going to bathe with a close �iend, a millionaire with two sons
harboured a lustful thought on seeing the body of Mahākassapa, who was
putting on his robe to enter Soreyya for alms. He thought, “May this elder be
my wife, or may my wife’s body be like his.” As that thought arose, he changed
into a woman. She was so embarrassed that she ran away and made her way to
the distant ci� of Takkasila (Taxila). There she married and had two sons. Thus
she was mother of two, and father of two.
Some time later, the millionaire’s close �iend went to Takkasila on business.
Recognising him, the millionaire had him invited to his mansion and after
�eating him to the usual hospitali�, inquired about his own parents. Then she
revealed her former identi� and confessed the thought that had caused the sex
change. The �iend advised the millionaire to ask the elder for forgiveness. As
Mahākassapa was living nearby, she invited him for alms and asked for
forgiveness. As soon as Mahākassapa forgave her, she changed back to a man.
He took leave of the father of his sons in Takkasila, kissed his sons goodbye,
and became a monk. He was known as the Elder Soreyya.
Travelling with Mahākassapa, Soreyya Thera arrived back at Sāvatthi. Hearing
about his past, the people of the coun�y asked him repeatedly which two sons
he had the most affection for. He replied patiently that had more affection for
those two sons of whom he was the mother.
Soreyya went into solitude and soon attained Arahantship. Later, when asked
the same question again he replied that he no affection for anyone. The monks
wondered whether this was �ue, and reported it to the Buddha who confirmed
that Soreyya was now �ee �om affection. The Buddha praised him and recited
the verse saying that a well-directed mind was of even greater benefit than a
mother or a father.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 12:11 pm [quote=Then she
revealed her former identi� and confessed the thought that had caused the sex
change. The �iend advised the millionaire to ask the elder for forgiveness. As
Mahākassapa was living nearby, she invited him for alms and asked for
forgiveness. As soon as Mahākassapa forgave her, she changed back to a man.
This story shows that being gay is inappropriate .
You always gain by giving
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Ceisiwr »

sentinel wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 2:49 pm
robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 12:11 pm [quote=Then she
revealed her former identi� and confessed the thought that had caused the sex
change. The �iend advised the millionaire to ask the elder for forgiveness. As
Mahākassapa was living nearby, she invited him for alms and asked for
forgiveness. As soon as Mahākassapa forgave her, she changed back to a man.
This story shows that being gay is inappropriate .

How?
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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robertk
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by robertk »

sentinel wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 2:49 pm
robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 12:11 pm [quote=Then she
revealed her former identi� and confessed the thought that had caused the sex
change. The �iend advised the millionaire to ask the elder for forgiveness. As
Mahākassapa was living nearby, she invited him for alms and asked for
forgiveness. As soon as Mahākassapa forgave her, she changed back to a man.
This story shows that being gay is inappropriate .
It shows a few things, including that lusting for a monk is wrong. And it also shows a man who gave up that lust , and indeed all desire, and became an arahat.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 pm
sentinel wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 2:49 pm
robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 12:11 pm [quote=Then she
revealed her former identi� and confessed the thought that had caused the sex
change. The �iend advised the millionaire to ask the elder for forgiveness. As
Mahākassapa was living nearby, she invited him for alms and asked for
forgiveness. As soon as Mahākassapa forgave her, she changed back to a man.
This story shows that being gay is inappropriate .

How?
It shows that loving another man (incidentally a monk) was wrong and leads to sex changed as it's karma .
When ask for forgiveness , changed back to a man . Asking for forgiveness means himself understood and acknowledged that he was wrong .
You always gain by giving
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Ceisiwr »

sentinel wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 4:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 pm
sentinel wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 2:49 pm

This story shows that being gay is inappropriate .

How?
It shows that loving another man (incidentally a monk) was wrong and leads to sex changed as it's karma .
When ask for forgiveness , changed back to a man . Asking for forgiveness means himself understood and acknowledged that he was wrong .

Seems more like trans than gay and that we shouldn’t lust after monks or nuns. I see nothing which condemns homosexuality.
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by binocular »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 amSo because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior suggests that the underlying assumption is that sex is primarily about power, not even about lust, or, heaven forbid, romance.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:52 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 amSo because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior suggests that the underlying assumption is that sex is primarily about power, not even about lust, or, heaven forbid, romance.
Who suggests that, and whose assumption is it?
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:25 pm
binocular wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:52 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:11 amSo because I’m a bottom I can’t be ordained
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior suggests that the underlying assumption is that sex is primarily about power, not even about lust, or, heaven forbid, romance.
Who suggests that, and whose assumption is it?
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior is one found in ancient Greek and Roman culture, and in India in the Buddha's time (according to the blog in the OP).
I infer that the underlying assumption for this idea that the "bottom" is inferior is that sex is primarily about power, because it's only when sex is considered as an issue of power that there can be talk of "inferior" and "superior" in relation to people's roles, or, oh god, positions, in it.



BTW --
I used your externalizing style earlier -- and you take issue with it. Eh. Assertiveness gets readily dismissed around here ...
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:37 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:25 pm
binocular wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:52 pm
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior suggests that the underlying assumption is that sex is primarily about power, not even about lust, or, heaven forbid, romance.
Who suggests that, and whose assumption is it?
The idea that the "bottom" is inferior is one found in ancient Greek and Roman culture, and in India in the Buddha's time (according to the blog in the OP).
I infer that the underlying assumption for this idea that the "bottom" is inferior is that sex is primarily about power, because it's only when sex is considered as an issue of power that there can be talk of "inferior" and "superior" in relation to people's roles, or, oh god, positions, in it.
Nobody suggested that the "bottom" was inferior. That's an assumption you supplied. Google "power bottom" to see an opposing view. Ceisiwr was talking about admission to the Sangha. That's not a matter of inferiority or superiority.
BTW --
I used your externalizing style earlier -- and you take issue with it. Eh. Assertiveness gets readily dismissed around here ...
I'm sorry, I have no idea what this means. I'm only taking issue with the content of your post.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by DooDoot »

robertk wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 12:11 pm While going to bathe with a close �iend, a millionaire with two sons
harboured a lustful thought on seeing the body of Mahākassapa, who was
putting on his robe to enter Soreyya for alms. He thought, “May this elder be
my wife, or may my wife’s body be like his.” As that thought arose, he changed
into a woman. She was so embarrassed that she ran away and made her way to
the distant ci� of Takkasila (Taxila). There she married and had two sons. Thus
she was mother of two, and father of two.
I am reading this story accurately? This story appears miraculous; that a man changes into a woman instantly and can also conceive and bear children. :shock:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 9:43 pm I am reading this story accurately? This story appears miraculous; that a man changes into a woman instantly and can also conceive and bear children. :shock:
As a general rule, to take one's Dhamma from Commentarial Stories and/or Jatakas, rather than the original Suttas (& Vinaya in the case of monastic practice), is a risky method liable to distortions.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by form »

At a Buddhist society I am familiar with, there are a few gays and lesbians. Almost all of them to not disturb others and are there genuinely to study the dhamma. They are just like normal students, willing to help others and the behaviours and topics they talk are normal. Only one that is there with ulterior motive were asked not to stop attending the sessions.
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Re: Pannobhasa on homosexuality, transsexuality, and pandaka

Post by _anicca_ »

The object of desire does not matter: the desire itself is what matters.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

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