Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Antaradhana thank you for the information on Russia. Pl tell us more, because
I am not very familiar with the Russian culture. Do you have buddhist
temples? Is your president a Buddhist also? :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Here is the Dhammavuddho Thera article, where he says that for the fruit of sotapanna, it is not necessary to attain jhana https://viet.net/anson/ebud/ebdha163.htm There are many examples in the suttas when the non-meditating laymen having heard the lecture of the Buddha immediately acquired the fruit of sotapanna.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:34 pm Antaradhana thank you for the information on Russia. Pl tell us more, because
I am not very familiar with the Russian culture. Do you have buddhist
temples? Is your president a Buddhist also? :candle:
This is absolutely offtopic. But briefly: Russia is a predominantly christian country, although there are muslim and buddhist (tibetan-mongolian buddhism) regions. Theravada is represented by a small number of enthusiasts who translate and study texts (for example, almost the entire Sutta-pitaka is translated into Russian), there are several communities in large cities, as well as several monks ordained in Asian countries.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by mikenz66 »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:32 pmIf he says Jhana is not necessary for practicing the path, is he not contradicting
the very teaching? the 4NT that includes the 8-fold path. :candle:
He is not saying that Jhana is unnecessary. He is saying that the Suttas appear to indicate that a Stream Enterer or Once Returner does not necessarily have Jhana yet.

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:09 pm I have never practiced breath meditation... I will just stick to the 4 jhana method with its similes
The suttas say the concentration developed by Anapansati is used for jhanas. For example:
Now, a mendicant might wish: ‘Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, may I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.’ So let them closely focus on this immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.8/en/sujato
The Buddha said his own concentration was that developed from Anapanasati.
For if anything should be rightly called
Yañhi taṃ, bhikkhave, sammā vadamāno vadeyya:

‘the meditation of a noble one’, or else ‘the meditation of a Brahmā’, or else ‘the meditation of a realized one’,
‘ariyavihāro’ itipi, ‘brahmavihāro’ itipi, ‘tathāgatavihāro’ itipi.

it’s immersion due to mindfulness of breathing.
Ānāpānassatisamādhiṃ sammā vadamāno vadeyya:

https://suttacentral.net/sn54.11/en/sujato
It seems what you are talking about is not real jhana.
Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:32 pm DooDoot when did Bodhi write this article? https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
It seems full of contradictions.
When I read this article, I found it to be well spoken. To support your opinion, you must post the sentences from the article you believe are contradictory. :smile:

Many suttas say mastery of jhana results in the destruction of sensual desire because the mind, at will, can experience jhana pleasure, which is far superior to sensual pleasure. Therefore, logically, if a stream-enterer has mastered jhana, the stream-enterer would cut the fetter of sensual desire. However, the suttas do not say a stream-enterer has cut the fetter of sensual desire. This shows a stream-enterer has not reached jhana. :smile:
mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 amHe is not saying that Jhana is unnecessary. He is saying that the Suttas appear to indicate that a Stream Enterer or Once Returner does not necessarily have Jhana yet.
Yes. The entire introduction of the article is devoted to the role jhana.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The Pāli Nikāyas leave no doubt of the important role the jhānas play in the structure of the Buddhist path. In such texts as the Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN No. 2), the Cūḷahatthipadopama Sutta (MN No. 27), and many others on the "gradual training" (anupubbasikkhā) of the Buddhist monk, the Buddha invariably introduces the jhānas to exemplify the training in concentration. When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, we read, he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the "five hindrances." When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhānas, described by a stock formula repeated countless times in the Nikāyas.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote,
There is a sutta somewhere that says when the mother hen sits correctly on her eggs, she does not have to worry that her eggs may not hatch properly.
How could you forget its name SN 22.101 it is called Nava suttaor or adze handle. Now we can call it 'hen sutta'.The hen you are talking about, helps my case, to prove the need for absolute concentration, as only the jhanic states will allow.

Excerpt from hen sutta
Suppose a hen has eight, ten, or twelve eggs: If she doesn't cover them rightly, warm them rightly, or incubate them rightly, then even though this wish may occur to her — 'O that my chicks might break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely!' — still it is not possible that the chicks will break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely. Why is that? Because the hen has not covered them rightly, warmed them rightly, or incubated them rightly. has not developed things correctly
likewise the meditator
who has not developed
his practice, will not succeed.
Lack of development of what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path
DooDoot, thanks for the sutta, all I was trying to say was how important the incubation is for the Noble Path. How does asking to practice right concentration become, converse encouragement :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Ajahn Brahm's explanations of jhana appear very far from Pulsar's ('Jhana-Extra-Lite-Lo-Calorie'), similar to how calculus is very far from basic arithmetic. Ajahn Brahm's explanations of jhana are similar to mine.
As for 'Jhana-Extra-Lite-Lo-Calorie' I am not sure what I do is lo-calorie, I had to give up many things like reading anything but Dhamma, immersing myself in the canon, and immersing myself in Buddhaghosa's Path to Purification and Expositor, and reading the thoughts of early abhidhammikas and also I had to wade thru all of Analayos translations. I also read the scholars who analyzed the suttas and pointed out the things that were blatantly shoved in the middle of the Pali suttas from Upanishads. I basically educated myself on 'How to make sense of the Suttas'
Unlike you, I do not wholesale reject Buddhaghosa, just because your dear Rev Buddhadasa made comments
'Buddhaghosa collected writings of others also and published these under his name' I think we should build a Stupa for Buddhaghosa, for the contributions he made to the Sasana. Rupert Gethin a very wise scholar, has analyzed his writing, and said not everything in VSM was written by Buddhghosa, and the funny thing is I was able to exactly find what Buddhaghosa wrote and what he did not. Mahayanists call that Upaya, skill in means. You appear to have analyzed all that Ajhan B. said and accepted it, as the Kalamas did.
Good for you, but the things you say appear to be contrary to what Buddha said, for he never said right concentration is a super natural power to begin with. In fact he admonished the monks
that resorted to supernatural things like iddhis. To show off, was not Buddha's style. Buddha thought the miracle is in the teaching and it should come naturally to the resolute person. :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Ajahn Brahm's explanations of jhana are similar to mine
OK I have not followed Brahm's method, whatever his method is, I am sure he sticks to the canon. What I am referring to, I did not invent it. It is all from the canon too, teased apart using the scalpel of wisdom, that wisdom is from Expositor written by Buddhaghaosa. From the suttas I have left out the parts stuck in by the Brahmins, like climbing the base of neither perception or non-perception, etc. arupas from step 5-8.
Those were upanishad meditattions. why did I have to kill myself practicing something irrelevant?
But there are a few places where Buddha used this terminology and infused his own teaching into these.
Right concentration was solely required to get insight into the teaching, operation of the aggregates, sense bases, dhatus, 3 signs of life and the important aspects of DO, and penetrate 4NT.

If you truly follow Brahm method, why the need to start another thread asking others in DW, what the 3 kinds of concentration are? viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34816
Are you doing vipassana at the same time? Answers on the thread relate to Vipassana.
If you asked me, I could have told you, the 3 kinds of concentration that relate to Rupa jhanas. But you did not ask, maybe because you do not have a clue what the rupa jhanas are about. You keep repeating that they are super natural.
I am sure Ajhan Brahm, explains real jhana, you just have to go to his website and find those.
It is a mistake to mix and match vipassana and the 4 jhanas.

The canon and the relevant sections of Buddhaghosa, plus the work of early Abhidhammikas, plus the work of scholars eat up all my time, plus the practice, plus the time I spend with you, engaging in relentless dispute.
So I would not so flippantly say what Pulsar does is
Extra-Lite-Lo-Calorie
I wanted others to think that it is not beyond the householder, that a certain degree of seclusion is essential to get the muddled mind, unmuddled.
DooDoot writes, the way I explain it, anyone can do it. No I said
Resolute householder can do it
not anyone. To make the mind resolute, practices like brahma viharas are v. helpful.
By rejecting jhanas for 7 years I had only hindered my progress. I wanted others to know, and I started another thread to do just this, explain Rupa jhanas from square one, and I asked Antaradhana and you not to comment on the newer thread, but the two of you insisted, so I gave up the idea. I know for a fact there are some who would like to know, in a private they would ask me to explain, but this is something impossible to do in one private comment. The intention of the newer thread was to discuss jhana from simple to the complicated, over time. But the two of you made sure that it did not happen.
PS maybe in a year's time I will try again. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
The suttas say the concentration developed by Anapansati is used for jhanas
I do not dispute. Buddha also practiced anapanasati, I do not dispute. But there also are suttas that show how to become calm using other ways, Kayagatsati is an example.
The major problem with your thinking dear DooDoot is, you think due to mere breath contemplation you can reach bliss, and that is sufficient. You speak of sensations in your nervous system as proof.
Buddha never spoke of the effects of breathing on nervous system.
That is your innovation.
Besides, maybe you can breath better than I do, I have asthma, if I keep concentrating on my breath, I become
restless, so it is not for me.
But read the Anapanasati sutta again, what the tetrads are referring to. They are referring to jhanas, they are referring to Satipatthana, they are referring to the 7 enlightenment factors. Accomplishment in all these
is essential. You appear to lose sight of this, because you are lost in your breath, and the bliss
it brings your nervous system, the way it calms you. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot as for what you wrote
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:
The Pāli Nikāyas leave no doubt of the important role the jhānas play in the structure of the Buddhist path. In such texts as the Sāmaññaphala Sutta (DN No. 2), the Cūḷahatthipadopama Sutta (MN No. 27), and many others on the "gradual training" (anupubbasikkhā) of the Buddhist monk, the Buddha invariably introduces the jhānas to exemplify the training in concentration. When the bhikkhu has fulfilled the preliminary moral discipline, we read, he goes off into solitude and cleanses his mind of the "five hindrances." When his mind has been so cleansed, he enters and dwells in the four jhānas, described by a stock formula repeated countless times in the Nikāyas.
I have no argument with this. I did not read the entire link.
I read all the scholars' commentaries long ago. We should build shrines for Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Analayo, for
the service they did. Without climbing on the shoulders of these giants where would we be? :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Sutta with an important point:

AN 6.73 Paṭhamatajjhāna Sutta: First Absorption (1st)

Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption.

But after giving up these six qualities you can enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. After giving up these six qualities you can enter and remain in the first absorption.”


https://suttacentral.net/an6.73/en/sujato

If the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have truly seen clearly with right wisdom, then man will not seek them.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:35 pmWe should build shrines for Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Analayo, for the service they did. Without climbing on the shoulders of these giants where would we be?
Personally & fortunately, I never heard of these monks (who have many view I disagree with) until relatively recently. Personally, I can't recall learning anything significant from any of them.
Antaradhana wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 am Sutta with an important point:... If the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have truly seen clearly with right wisdom, then man will not seek them.
Indeed. More relevant suttas (debunking fake jhana) here:
First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. While a mendicant is in such a meditation, should perceptions and attentions accompanied by sensual pleasures beset them, that’s an affliction for them....

https://suttacentral.net/an9.34/en/sujato
"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“There are, mendicants, these two kinds of happiness.

What two?

Sensual happiness and the happiness of renunciation.

The better of these two kinds of happiness is the happiness of renunciation.

https://suttacentral.net/an2.64-76/en/sujato
290. If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise man renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Antaradhana wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 am Sutta with an important point:

AN 6.73 Paṭhamatajjhāna Sutta: First Absorption (1st)

Mendicants, without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures haven’t been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. Without giving up these six qualities you can’t enter and remain in the first absorption.

But after giving up these six qualities you can enter and remain in the first absorption. What six? Desire for sensual pleasures, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. And the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have been truly seen clearly with right wisdom. After giving up these six qualities you can enter and remain in the first absorption.”


https://suttacentral.net/an6.73/en/sujato

If the drawbacks of sensual pleasures have truly seen clearly with right wisdom, then man will not seek them.
But does "giving up" here involve the permanent eradication of the hindrances, or a temporary seclusion from them?

I ask because in MN64 the jhanas are used to overcome the five lower fetters, which have quite a lot in common with the five hindrances.
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Actually AN11.1 suggests sila as the most important requisite for jhana (immersion).
https://suttacentral.net/an11.1/en/sujato

See also SN12.23 on "transcendental dependent arising".
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.23/en/bodhi
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Dinsdale wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:15 amActually AN11.1 suggests sila as the most important requisite for jhana (immersion).
It may be an important prerequisite but whether AN 11.1 is suggesting sila is the most important requisite for jhana (immersion) appears questionable. For example, if sila was the most important requisite for jhana then I imagine all of those bhikkhus maintaining 227 precepts would automatically arrive with ease to jhana.
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