Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:35 pm
We should build shrines for Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Analayo, for the service they did. Without climbing on the shoulders of these giants where would we be?
and he commented
Personally & fortunately, I never heard of these monks (who have many view I disagree with) until relatively recently. Personally, I can't recall learning anything significant from any of them.
I am surprised that you have not heard of the above monks until relatively recently (right speech, right?). Personally and fortunately for pulsar, he/she had access to these translations.
I should have added the names of
Isaline B. Horner
and
Maurice Walsh
those who translated important portions of the canon.
I was mainly pointing out, since I do not comprehend Pali, I would have been lost without them, literally.
My comment was regarding their translations and nothing else. When they offered their personal opinions, I examined those as Kalamas were supposed to do.
I am grateful that they were brave enuf to express their personal opinions, knowing full well that they would be subject to criticism. But what do they say about the Royal elephant? He goes to battle ignoring the arrows of the battlefield. I think that metaphor was in one of the jhana suttas. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:58 pm DooDoot wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:35 pm
We should build shrines for Bodhi, Thanissaro, and Analayo, for the service they did. Without climbing on the shoulders of these giants where would we be?
and he commented
Personally & fortunately, I never heard of these monks (who have many view I disagree with) until relatively recently. Personally, I can't recall learning anything significant from any of them.
I am surprised that you have not heard of the above monks until relatively recently (right speech, right?). Personally and fortunately for pulsar, he/she had access to these translations.
I should have added the names of
Isaline B. Horner
and
Maurice Walsh
those who translated important portions of the canon.
I was mainly pointing out, since I do not comprehend Pali, I would have been lost without them, literally.
My comment was regarding their translations and nothing else. When they offered their personal opinions, I examined those as Kalamas were supposed to do.
I am grateful that they were brave enuf to express their personal opinions, knowing full well that they would be subject to criticism. But what do they say about the Royal elephant? He goes to battle ignoring the arrows of the battlefield. I think that metaphor was in one of the jhana suttas. :candle:
I struggle to understand how anyone with an interest in the suttas wouldn't be aware of translators like Bhikkhu Bodhi, or not appreciate the contribution they have made to our understanding of the EBT.

And my impression is that it's Bhikkhu Bodhi's sutta translations which are most often referenced in discussions on forum like this.

I think people sometimes underestimate the challenges involved in translating ancient texts, and it involves a great deal more than the piecemeal translation of words.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Aloka
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Aloka »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 pm I was able to exactly find what Buddhaghosa wrote and what he did not. Mahayanists call that Upaya, skill in means.

So you believe you have the skills to guide others to liberation ?


.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Aloka wrote
So you believe you have the skills to guide others to liberation ?
Did I say anything to this effect? Of the things I wrote which exact statement
implied this? :candle:
form
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by form »

Antaradhana wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:51 pm
chownah wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:40 pmCan you find a theravada reference which says that The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds?
Offhand, I recall the AN 4.123, which states that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.
I think the level of mastery can be a factor as well. Some source state the entering needs to be exactly before and stays there till one dies.
chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

form wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 am
Antaradhana wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:51 pm
chownah wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:40 pmCan you find a theravada reference which says that The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds?
Offhand, I recall the AN 4.123, which states that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.
I think the level of mastery can be a factor as well. Some source state the entering needs to be exactly before and stays there till one dies.
But, there is no theravada source which says "The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds"......and an4.123 does not state that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.......what antaradhana claims can not be found in the link which antaradhana provides.....this all seems to be antaradhana's own imagination.....I guess....don't know for sure......
chownah
form
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:16 am
form wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 am
Antaradhana wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:51 pm

Offhand, I recall the AN 4.123, which states that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.
I think the level of mastery can be a factor as well. Some source state the entering needs to be exactly before and stays there till one dies.
But, there is no theravada source which says "The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds"......and an4.123 does not state that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.......what antaradhana claims can not be found in the link which antaradhana provides.....this all seems to be antaradhana's own imagination.....I guess....don't know for sure......
chownah
I dun recall seeing it appears as equal..........

I just assume that is already very high level mind state, likely to be associated with arahats as well.
chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

form wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:20 am
chownah wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:16 am
form wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:33 am

I think the level of mastery can be a factor as well. Some source state the entering needs to be exactly before and stays there till one dies.
But, there is no theravada source which says "The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds"......and an4.123 does not state that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.......what antaradhana claims can not be found in the link which antaradhana provides.....this all seems to be antaradhana's own imagination.....I guess....don't know for sure......
chownah
I dun recall seeing it appears as equal..........

I just assume that is already very high level mind state, likely to be associated with arahats as well.
You can assume whatever you want.....all of us can do that....what I'm asking for is some theravada source which supports your assumptions......so far all the assumptions I've mentioned have not been supported by any theravada source.
chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by form »

chownah wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:06 am
form wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:20 am
chownah wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:16 am
But, there is no theravada source which says "The mind becomes equal to Brahma's minds"......and an4.123 does not state that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world.......what antaradhana claims can not be found in the link which antaradhana provides.....this all seems to be antaradhana's own imagination.....I guess....don't know for sure......
chownah
I dun recall seeing it appears as equal..........

I just assume that is already very high level mind state, likely to be associated with arahats as well.
You can assume whatever you want.....all of us can do that....what I'm asking for is some theravada source which supports your assumptions......so far all the assumptions I've mentioned have not been supported by any theravada source.
chownah
I agree with u. Dun hv something directly.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Thank you Chownah for your persistence, some of these arguments wear me out. Folks are confused
by the word brahma, for sometimes in the canon, it is used to imply imaginary Brahma world. In some suttas Buddha implies the great Brahma is a deluded soul. Then we have Brahma Viharas, poetical words
used to describe superior states of mind. It does not mean that if we practice brahma viharas, we practically
get teleported to brahma world, or deva world, but there is a serenity in the mind of the practitioner,
that it appears like a teleportation, but the body is still part of the disintegrating five aggregates.

In some situations the Arahant is compared to a brahma, by the buddha, since the Indian society, of Buddha's time considered brahma to be supreme. Everything has to be read in context. Antaradhana adds to the confusion. Your presence is appreciated :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

chownah wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:16 am...and an4.123 does not state that a person who is able to enter a particular jhana at will is reborn by Brahma in the corresponding world of rupa-loka, after death in the human world...
Is said:

"There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that—then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma’s retinue".
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:02 am Then we have Brahma Viharas, poetical words
used to describe superior states of mind. It does not mean that if we practice brahma viharas, we practically
get teleported to brahma world, or deva world, but there is a serenity in the mind of the practitioner,
that it appears like a teleportation, but the body is still part of the disintegrating five aggregates.
These are not poetic words. Brahma vihara are called like that, because if they are developed perfectly, they lead to the worlds of brahmas (rupa-loka) in the next life.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:58 pmI was mainly pointing out, since I do not comprehend Pali, I would have been lost without them, literally.
It seems obvious the above statement is a contradiction.
Pulsar wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:02 am It does not mean that if we practice brahma viharas, we practically get teleported to brahma world, or deva world, but there is a serenity in the mind of the practitioner
It seems your ideas above are different to those of Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, Analayo and the other purported "giants" you claim to honor. Unlike Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, Analayo, etc, it sounds like you do not believe in an 'afterlife' & 'reincarnation'.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Aloka since you did not reply, I went over what you wrote
Pulsar wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:54 pm
I was able to exactly find what Buddhaghosa wrote and what he did not. Mahayanists call that Upaya, skill in means.
based on this Aloka writes
So you believe you have the skills to guide others to liberation
Perhaps Aloka does not understand what Theravada commentaries are. They are only commentaries, you have to take it for what it is worth.
I did not say I was able to know exactly what Buddha meant by his teachings. If I knew that, even to get from Right Concentration (4 jhanas) to Right Knowledge the 9th factor of MN 117, that would be something. Even if I did that how could I guide others.
That is a Mahayana concept, to think one can save the rest of humanity or the sentient world
The Mahayanist refuses to be nibbanized, until rest of the world is saved. Good Luck to our Mahayana friends, who have come up with their own suttas, and therefore have no idea what the living Buddha taught, just some nirmanakaya Buddha's teachings. Were you ever a Mahayanist? Theravadins don't entertain this idea.
PS To detach myself from the Asavas that plague me, I still struggle. :heart:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Antaradhana as for your
insistence on Brahma worlds
it is true Buddha has said
those jhana clingers as DooDoot seems to imply
in the sense those who are intoxicated by love of immaterial states and delighting in the those incessantly (Dhammaragena, Dhammanandiya), were they to die (my impression those stages invented before Buddha's time) were they to die, they would be born in Brahma worlds.
Those who marvel at this kind of birth do not understand that thereafter
once the good kamma is exhausted, they can slip into Perdition
The whole point of Buddha's teaching was ending of such suffering, not reaching Brahma worlds eventually, as an end. Therefore for me to engage in that kind of meditation, with that intention is a waste of time.
Practice of Brahma Vihara by the Buddhist, has a different purpose altogether. Brahma viharas too was a practice that existed before Buddha's time. Buddha used it as a means to calm the mind, to wipe the defilements to enter Rupa Jhanic states, the 8th factor of the Noble Path :heart:
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