Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Unlike Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, Analayo, etc, it sounds like you do not believe in an 'afterlife' & 'reincarnation'
Dear DooDoot, that is purely your opinion, you have misinterpreted what Pulsar said, just like Aloka got the impression,
that Pulsar is claiming that he/she can save the rest of the world
Neither do I disclaim rebirth, nor do I claim I can lead others to deliverance.
I find these opinions of the two of you amusing. The only thing I can deduce from these opinions of the two of you were that once DooDoot did not accept Rebirth as a possibility, and once Aloka was a Mahayana Buddhist
Underlying tendencies, paint one's thoughts :heart:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Antaradhana you claim
one cannot engage in Jhanic meditation without permanently giving up sensual pleasures.
Have you read Buddha's biography? When he was a 6 year old, under a rose apple tree, leading the life of a prince immersed in sensaul pleasures otherwise, briefly he left sensual pleasures to attain first buddhist jhana.
What do you know of Dhamma dear Antaradana? it is nice if you did not discourage others from trying these meditative states, essential for Noble Path. :heart:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:11 pm Antaradhana you claim
one cannot engage in Jhanic meditation without permanently giving up sensual pleasures.
Have you read Buddha's biography? When he was a 6 year old, under a rose apple tree, leading the life of a prince immersed in sensaul pleasures otherwise, briefly he left sensual pleasures to attain first buddhist jhana.
What do you know of Dhamma dear Antaradana? it is nice if you did not discourage others from trying these meditative states, essential for Noble Path. :heart:
1. No need to compare bodhisatta with ordinary creatures. There are no other such cases in Canon.

2. At 6 years of age there is still no sexual passion, which is the strongest of the sensory shackles.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:50 pmPractice of Brahma Vihara by the Buddhist, has a different purpose altogether. Brahma viharas too was a practice that existed before Buddha's time. Buddha used it as a means to calm the mind, to wipe the defilements to enter Rupa Jhanic states, the 8th factor of the Noble Path :heart:
Brahma vihara in any teaching is a method of counteracting undesirable mental conditions, a method of purification, elevation and expansion of the mind. As for the 4 jhanas, then of course they are not an end in themselves in the Dhamma of the Blessed One, they are needed as a tool for acquiring vipassana-nyana. Jhanas are like a microscope, with the help of which one can see the deeper layers of the mind. In the Buddhist practice, jhanas are needed not for enjoying them, but for the practice of the four satipatthana and the visions of the tilakhana at an ever deeper level.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Antaradhana wrote
need to compare bodhisatta with ordinary creatures
You are just
plain brilliant, you made me think of something I had not paid attention to before. All my Mahayana friends are Bodhisattas, and I am not. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Antaradhana wrote
Jhanas are like a microscope, with the help of which one can see the deeper layers of the mind. In the Buddhist practice, jhanas are needed not for enjoying them,Jhanas are like a microscope, with the help of which one can see the deeper layers of the mind. In the Buddhist practice, jhanas are needed not for enjoying them, but for the practice of the four satipatthana and the visions of the tilakhana at an ever deeper level. and the visions of the tilakhana at an ever deeper level
I never said the Buddhist meditations are designed for pure enjoyment. It is a way of calming the mind to a level of equanimity, where insight into buddhist truths can be gained. Satisfaction gained thereby cannot be compared to pleasures of the sensual world.
You implied
jhana is used to practice of the four satipatthana
MN 125 says Satipatthana should be practiced before jhana.
Anyways all this does not matter, you seem to accept the fact that ordinary folks can practice the 4 buddhist
meditations called 4 rupa jhanas. If you do not think so, I have to conclude that you think, ordinary folks are unable to practice Satipatthana. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:01 pm once DooDoot did not accept Rebirth as a possibility
Friend Pulsar. Still having the self-confessed struggle with Right Speech? I only posted my impression that you do not accept 'reincarnation' (based on the words you wrote) & that you are atheist towards the Brahma Gods that Bhikkhu Bodhi appears to believe in so much (based on the words you wrote). I do recall you appeared to post "Brahma is a serenity in the mind of the practitioner" rather than a God in the clouds. I never ever posted I have ever accepted 'reincarnation-rebirth' as a possibly. I kindly ask you to not engage in false speech against me. Kind regards :smile:
Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:11 pmAntaradhana you claim one cannot engage in Jhanic meditation without permanently giving up sensual pleasures. Have you read Buddha's biography? When he was a 6 year old, under a rose apple tree, leading the life of a prince immersed in sensaul pleasures otherwise, briefly he left sensual pleasures to attain first buddhist jhana.
My impression of the story is young Gotama spontaneously entered jhana when he was 6 years old and only once. Also, he did not know he entered jhana. Importantly, young Gotama entered jhana because he was bored or disinterested in the festival. In other words, young Gotama was disinterested in sensual pleasures.

I agree with Antaradhana that your idea that a person can "briefly" leave habitual sensual & sexual pleasures and enter jhana is non-sense. If sexual pleasures could be briefly left for jhana, monks & nuns would not require to be celibate.
Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:06 pmMN 125 says Satipatthana should be practiced before jhana.
Your interpretation above sounds very seriously wrong, in that it sounds like you are saying jhana is not an object of satipatthana. Satipatthana is the practise of non-clinging towards any body, any feeling, any citta, any dhamma.

Therefore, it appears self-evident you believe satipatthana & jhana are not related. The impression is you believe jhana is produced by the self & by clinging; that jhana is to be clung to & identified with as "self"; and that clinging & selfing is the practise of Dhamma. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:30 pmJhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.... Some perceive the four rupa jhanas as superhuman states...
Returning to the OP, after six pages of posts, it has been posted with quotations the Suttas & Vinaya literally say jhana is a superhuman state. Therefore, it appears conclusive the OP is wrong is saying "misconceptions have arisen regarding the four rupa jhana". I think it accords with Dhamma practise the OP confesses their error and their false accusations against others.

:candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:12 am Returning to the OP, after six pages of posts, it has been posted with quotations the Suttas & Vinaya literally say jhana is a superhuman state.
I must have missed the post which contained the quotations which LITERALLY say jhana is a superhuman state.....could you please bring the quotation and a link to the reference which contains it?.....I think that you could easily find it while I (after wading around somewhat) have not been able to find it.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

Perhaps this will help in clearing up the discrpancy between doodoot's view of jhana as being superhuman and pulsar's view of jhana as not being superhuman.

From Nyanatiloka's dictionary:
Mahaggata: lit., 'grown great', i.e. 'developed', exalted, supernormal. As mahaggata-citta it is the state of 'developed consciousness', attained in the fine-material and immaterial absorptions see: jhāna it is mentioned in the mind-contemplation of the Satipatthāna Sutta M. 10. - As mahaggatārammana it is the 'developed mental object' of those absorptions and is mentioned in the 'object triad' of the Abhidhamma schedule and Dhs. see: Guide, p. 6.
Thus jhana is indicated to be "supernormal".

Supernormal and superhuman are two different things. Supernormal is usually taken as an adjective (descriptive word) to talk about something deemed to be fundamentally above or better than what is normally found. Superhuman is usually taken as an adjective (descriptive word) to talk about something deemed to be beyond the ability of humans.

To put it briefly: You do not have to have superhuman abilities to obtain supernormal results.

I think that doodoot is probably not distinguishing between superhuman and supernormal. I have brought the pali word for supernormal....can someone find a pali word for superhuman?
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:42 am I must have missed the post which contained the quotations which LITERALLY say jhana is a superhuman state.....
Page 1, 4th post, here. Regards :smile:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by sentinel »

Superhuman = Superhuman qualities are enhanced qualities that exceed those naturally found in humans.

Supernormal = Supernormal means beyond what is normal; exceeding the average or the point of reference.

Any distinct difference between both ?
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:41 am
chownah wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:42 am I must have missed the post which contained the quotations which LITERALLY say jhana is a superhuman state.....
Page 1, 4th post, here. Regards :smile:
In the same sutta, I.B. Horner uses the term "states of further-men" when Bodhi uses "superhuman distinction".

Can you figure out what pali word is being translated?
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

chownah wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:52 amCan you figure out what pali word is being translated?
DooDoot wrote:But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease?

Atthi pana vo, anuruddhā, evaṃ appamattānaṃ ātāpīnaṃ pahitattānaṃ viharantānaṃ uttari manussadhammā alamariyañāṇadassanaviseso adhigato phāsuvihāro”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/mn31/en/sujato
I guess it is: uttari + manussadhammā
uttari
ind. & mfn.

(ind.) further, beyond (+ abl); more; in addition; most, exceedingly.
(mfn.) better, superior.

compn. form of uttara

https://suttacentral.net/define/uttari
'Uttara' is also found in MN 117 & SN 20.7:
And what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā?

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/sujato
‘When discourses spoken by the Realized One— deep, profound, transcendent, dealing with emptiness—are being recited we will want to listen. We will pay attention and apply our minds to understand them, and we will think those teachings are worth learning and memorizing.’

‘ye te suttantā tathāgatabhāsitā gambhīrā gambhīratthā lokuttarā suññatappaṭisaṃyuttā, tesu bhaññamānesu sussūsissāma, sotaṃ odahissāma, aññā cittaṃ upaṭṭhāpessāma, te ca dhamme uggahetabbaṃ pariyāpuṇitabbaṃ maññissāmā’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn20.7/en/sujato
It seems the Buddha said "uttara" is deep, profound & beyond the world. But Pulsar seems to say 'uttara' is ordinary activity between & after sexual/sensual activity.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Aloka »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:01 pm DooDoot wrote
Unlike Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, Analayo, etc, it sounds like you do not believe in an 'afterlife' & 'reincarnation'
Dear DooDoot, that is purely your opinion, you have misinterpreted what Pulsar said, just like Aloka got the impression,
that Pulsar is claiming that he/she can save the rest of the world
Neither do I disclaim rebirth, nor do I claim I can lead others to deliverance.
I find these opinions of the two of you amusing. The only thing I can deduce from these opinions of the two of you were that once DooDoot did not accept Rebirth as a possibility, and once Aloka was a Mahayana Buddhist
Underlying tendencies, paint one's thoughts :heart:
That is NOT what was said, you have invented the above quote from me:

This was the conversation:
Aloka wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:57 am
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 pm I was able to exactly find what Buddhaghosa wrote and what he did not. Mahayanists call that Upaya, skill in means.
So you believe you have the skills to guide others to liberation ?
.
Additionally, I practiced Vajrayana, not Mahayana. Maybe instead of appearing to apply "upaya" to yourself, you should look carefully at your own muddled "underlying tendancies" and attitudes, dear Mr/Mrs/Miss Pulsar..... and sticking a heart at the end of snidey comments written about me in a post to someone else, doesn't make then OK, either.


.
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