Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Dear Doctor/Mr/Mrs/Miss Aloka;
I apologize :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot, Remember when Buddha was confronted by Saccaka, the local leader of a jain sect...he was known for his intense philosophical rhetoric and debate to show his
superior knowledge. He would boast
I see no recluse or brahman, ...the head of a group, or even one who claims to be accomplished and fully enlightened would not shiver, quiver, shake, & break out in sweat under the armpits, if he were to engage in debate with me. Even if I were to engage a senseless post in debate, it would shiver, quiver, & shake, so what shell I say of a human being
like this Saccaka boasted before meeting Buddha, that
he would drag Gotama, to and fro and drag him all around, in the same way I, statement by statement, will drag Gotama the contemplative around.
But you know Buddha being Buddha was very kind to him, 'cause he knew several lifetimes later Saccaka would become an arahant in the tear drop island of Sri lanka according to Buddhaghosa, a rather cute story. Likewise I too find Saccaka endearing.
Saccaka of MN 35 and 36 reminds me of, ___who do you think dearest DooDoot? You are clever and intelligent and
good at debate, right now I do not have the time, perhaps I will address some of these issues
later as I find time :heart:
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:31 pmDooDoot, Remember when Buddha was confronted by Saccaka, the local leader of a jain sect...
Yes, Saccaka was defeated & corrected by the Buddha and showed remorse. Possibly you can follow Saccaka's honest example. :smile:
In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be void, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Vesālī: ‘If I was to take them on in debate, I don’t see any ascetic or brahmin—leader of an order or a community, or the teacher of a community, even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha—who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits. Even if I took on an insentient post in debate, it would shake and rock and tremble. How much more then a human being!’ But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it’s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Knowing this, the Licchavi DooDoot said to the Buddha, “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.”

“Then speak as you feel inspired DooDoot,” said the Buddha.

“Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on dry land. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s tricks, dodges, and evasions. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato
:candle:
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:31 pm right now I do not have the time
I think it is important to find the time to make confession to the Buddhas, as follows:
(BOW DOWN & SAY)

Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,

Buddhe kukammaṁ pakataṁ mayā yaṁ,

Buddho paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṁ,

Kāl’antare saṁvarituṁ va buddhe.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Buddha

by body, by speech, or by mind,

may the Buddha accept my admission of it,

so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Buddha.
Kāyena vācāya va cetasā vā,

Dhamme kukammaṁ pakataṁ mayā yaṁ,

Dhammo paṭiggaṇhatu accayantaṁ,

Kāl’antare saṁvarituṁ va dhamme.

Whatever bad kamma I have done to the Dhamma

by body, by speech, or by mind,

may the Dhamma accept my admission of it,

so that in the future I may show restraint toward the Dhamma.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Chant ... n0005.html
In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state. In other words, the Buddha & the Dhamma do not have misconceptions about true jhana. In summary, it appears it is Pulsar with misconceptions about jhana. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Possibly you can follow Saccaka's example. :smile:
Of course any day were I to meet the Buddha. Thank you for the helpful suggestion. :heart:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:42 pmOf course any day were I to meet the Buddha.
The Buddha said meeting the Dhamma is meeting the Buddha (SN 22.87). When we read & quote sutta, we meet the Buddha. :candle:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot as for your comment
In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state. In other words, the Buddha & the Dhamma do not have misconceptions about true jhana
This is simply your opinion. Buddha spoke of Mundane vs Supramundane when it came to the Noble path.
Is there a human and superhuman Noble path? If so it is not in the translations I read. As for the discussion
on Jhana, it is undertaken only in relation to the Noble path, as taught by Buddha.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
The Buddha said meeting the Dhamma is meeting the Buddha (SN 22.87). When we read & quote sutta, we meet the Buddha.
Right, it appears that the Buddha I meet through the canon, is different from the Buddha you meet through those teachings. Buddha I meet, never says anything other than Mundane vs Supramundane Path. He does not speak of Human vs Superhuman Noble Path. or normal vs Superman Noble Path :heart:
chownah
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:01 am
chownah wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:52 amCan you figure out what pali word is being translated?
DooDoot wrote:But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease?

Atthi pana vo, anuruddhā, evaṃ appamattānaṃ ātāpīnaṃ pahitattānaṃ viharantānaṃ uttari manussadhammā alamariyañāṇadassanaviseso adhigato phāsuvihāro”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/mn31/en/sujato
I guess it is: uttari + manussadhammā
uttari
ind. & mfn.

(ind.) further, beyond (+ abl); more; in addition; most, exceedingly.
(mfn.) better, superior.

compn. form of uttara
Well then, it seems that the word being translated as "superhuman" does not in fact mean superhuman....looks like some translators are using a bit of liberal license in their translations.

Also, I believe that english is not your first language....I think it is likely that you are not aware of the nuance involved in the various words in the english language which is probably a big part of the reason you misconstrue what people say......it is clear from your comments on pulsars posting that you misconstrue what is being said.....you miss the nuance between superhuman and supernormal and so you think pulsar thinks jhana is easy.....clearly this is not the case......
chownah
Last edited by chownah on Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:35 pm In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state.
No it does not.....you have failed at even showing that the concept of "superhuman" even existed in the pali language......it seems to just be your fabrication.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pseudobabble »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm DooDoot as for your comment
In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state. In other words, the Buddha & the Dhamma do not have misconceptions about true jhana
This is simply your opinion. Buddha spoke of Mundane vs Supramundane when it came to the Noble path.
Is there a human and superhuman Noble path? If so it is not in the translations I read. As for the discussion
on Jhana, it is undertaken only in relation to the Noble path, as taught by Buddha.
Don't bother to engage further with this - some people believe jhana is a superhuman state (whatever that actually means), and that's ok for them. Just keep researching and practicing for jhana (maybe you already attained it, I don't know). One can waste a lot of time and mental energy on debates which would be better spent on practice.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pseudobabble wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:54 pm
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm DooDoot as for your comment
In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state. In other words, the Buddha & the Dhamma do not have misconceptions about true jhana
This is simply your opinion. Buddha spoke of Mundane vs Supramundane when it came to the Noble path.
Is there a human and superhuman Noble path? If so it is not in the translations I read. As for the discussion
on Jhana, it is undertaken only in relation to the Noble path, as taught by Buddha.
Don't bother to engage further with this - some people believe jhana is a superhuman state (whatever that actually means), and that's ok for them. Just keep researching and practicing for jhana (maybe you already attained it, I don't know). One can waste a lot of time and mental energy on debates which would be better spent on practice.
:goodpost:

Unfortunately it seems that some people are more intent on point-scoring, and undermining others' efforts.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by chownah »

Pseudobabble wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:54 pm
Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:47 pm DooDoot as for your comment
In summary, the Buddha & the Dhamma teach jhana is a superhuman state. In other words, the Buddha & the Dhamma do not have misconceptions about true jhana
This is simply your opinion. Buddha spoke of Mundane vs Supramundane when it came to the Noble path.
Is there a human and superhuman Noble path? If so it is not in the translations I read. As for the discussion
on Jhana, it is undertaken only in relation to the Noble path, as taught by Buddha.
Don't bother to engage further with this - some people believe jhana is a superhuman state (whatever that actually means), and that's ok for them. Just keep researching and practicing for jhana (maybe you already attained it, I don't know). One can waste a lot of time and mental energy on debates which would be better spent on practice.
Good posting. I have no problem with people thinking that jhana is a superhuman state....but I do object to people claiming that jhana is "superhuman" as it is described in the suttas.....as far as I can tell there is no word in the pali language which can be credibly interpreted as "superhuman"......

....and secondly it is good to point out that if someone's engagement in this conversation is taking them away from their practice then they should perhaps seriously consider what value there is in continuing and what value is lost from their practice.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

chownah wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:14 pmI have no problem with people thinking that jhana is a superhuman state....but I do object to people claiming that jhana is "superhuman" as it is described in the suttas.....as far as I can tell there is no word in the pali language which can be credibly interpreted as "superhuman"...
Uttari manusa dhamma, it has been written several times to you, it is a superhuman condition.

A person does not perceive pain at all in the first jhana. His body changes properties, he can sit without moving for 7 days. Already in the first Jhana, many superpowers and knowledge are available. Awareness in the first jhana is much higher than in the normal state. In the comments a lot more is said about the wonderfulness of this state. Buddha says bluntly that the realm of the mind in jhana is immeasurable and inconceivable.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pseudobabble »

Antaradhana wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:45 pm A person does not perceive pain at all in the first jhana. His body changes properties, he can sit without moving for 7 days. Already in the first Jhana, many superpowers and knowledge are available. Awareness in the first jhana is much higher than in the normal state. In the comments a lot more is said about the wonderfulness of this state. Buddha says bluntly that the realm of the mind in jhana is immeasurable and inconceivable.
Do you know this from experience? Because you write as though you know this for certain.

If you do know it from experience, then you are claiming that you have 'superpowers', in your own words, which is, to put it lightly, a claim that is not easy to take seriously.

On the other hand, if you simply believe in the literal and complete truth of the suttas as they are written, then it is probably better to say that these are things you believe, and avoid using language which makes it sound as though you know that they are facts.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Antaradhana »

Pseudobabble wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:49 pm
Antaradhana wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:45 pm A person does not perceive pain at all in the first jhana. His body changes properties, he can sit without moving for 7 days. Already in the first Jhana, many superpowers and knowledge are available. Awareness in the first jhana is much higher than in the normal state. In the comments a lot more is said about the wonderfulness of this state. Buddha says bluntly that the realm of the mind in jhana is immeasurable and inconceivable.
Do you know this from experience? Because you write as though you know this for certain.

If you do know it from experience, then you are claiming that you have 'superpowers', in your own words, which is, to put it lightly, a claim that is not easy to take seriously.

On the other hand, if you simply believe in the literal and complete truth of the suttas as they are written, then it is probably better to say that these are things you believe, and avoid using language which makes it sound as though you know that they are facts.
Antaradhana wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:33 pm
Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:48 pmHave you meditated like this using obasanimitta?
No. And I will say straight away, dotting the "i" that I did not reach any superhuman states.
P.S. Sorry, that I do not meet your expectations.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
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