Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:48 am It is true there are no similes for the so called four Arupas in the canon,
these were not practiced by Buddhists at Buddha's time, only by non-buddhist ascetics.
They were introduced through an influential text written by Dharmasri after Buddha's
passing away.
There is an abundance of evidence that the āruppas were practised by Buddhists. For example, the stock description of the kāyasakkhin sekha:
“What kind of person is a body-witness? Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and some of his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called a body-witness. I say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? Because when that venerable one makes use of suitable resting places and associates with good friends and nurtures his spiritual faculties, he may by realising for himself with direct knowledge here and now enter upon and abide in that supreme goal of the holy life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from the home life into homelessness. Seeing this fruit of diligence for such a bhikkhu, I say that he still has work to do with diligence.
And the ubhatobhāgavimutta arahant:
“What kind of person is one liberated-in-both-ways? Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-in-both-ways. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn70

As for Dharmaśrī, his only jhāna-related innovation is that in contrast with most of his predecessors he has virtually nothing to say on the subject. His Abhidharmasāra mentions them only very briefly in connection with the attainment of non-returnership.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Rev Dhammanando, thank you for being here.
I wrote that Arupas were not practiced by buddhists in Buddha's time, meaning Arupas of Upanishad leanings. It is true that many suttas have 4 arupas following the 4 jhanas, these had to be practiced in a modified manner.
Can you pl explain to me
the difference between the arupas practiced by hindus and arupas practiced by buddhists?
My understanding is that Arupas practiced by non buddhists do not lead them to
enlightenment.
In Buddha's awakening  the 4th jhana, sufficed for his enlightenment. All that needed to be accomplished got accomplished right within 4th jhana. Why did he later introduce 4 arupa steps between 4th jhana and cessation? 
Once the 4 additional steps appeared did 4th jhana lose its primary significance, in the
modified sequences?
Does the insight normally achieved in 4th jhana shift to the pure immaterial steps like 6th and 7th in that modified sequence, because in the related cessation i.e. saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti, there is no activity.
Does this also mean these Arupas are superior to the four rupa jhanas?
They are stacked above 4th Jhana? If so can one achieve liberation by meditating using
arupas only?
In the 8-fold path Right concentration requires the practice of 4 rupa jhanas only
If that is all that is needed for liberation from suffering (a practice that requires extreme persistence), why did Buddha create a new scheme with saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti, which according to Buddhaghosa only non returners and Arahants, are privy to?
The sutta you referenced MN 70 Kitagiri sutta is one I could never figure out. I shall go over it in the next few days.
It seems the faith follower saddhanusarin and dhamma follower dhammanusarin are individuals on the path of stream entry. Are  they not better off resorting to the  four jhana path of liberation?

In the Sandha Sutta 
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha instructs Sandha, how a thoroughbred meditates 
...an excellent thoroughbred of a man, having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling, dwells with his awareness not overcome by sensual passion, not obsessed with sensual passion. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen
He dwells with his awareness not overcome by ill will... sloth & drowsiness... restlessness & anxiety... uncertainty, obsessed with uncertainty. He discerns the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen
He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed
And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar.

The Buddha is saying only the unbroken colt relies on immaterial attainments. The serious meditator does not rely on immaterial attainments i.e.
the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception
:candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Responding to ven Dhammanando,
his bringing up MN 70 Kitagiri sutta, to show us why immaterials important
 
I tried to figure out what ubhatobhagga means.
An excerpt from AN 9.45 Ubhatobhaga sutta:(Released) Both ways. www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an0 ... .than.html
 
There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released both ways though with a sequel
Ubhatobagga according to AN 9.45 has nothing to do specifically with immaterial attainments. It can be attained even in first jhana, if the above words of the canon are true, and one can become an arahant simply by persisting in first jhana.
As typical of several suttas, this statement is repeated for each jhana and each immaterial level, this does not prove serious meditators in Buddha's day practiced so called Immaterial attainments.

I also  tried to  figure out what bodily witness means, it has nothing to do with the immaterial jhanas specifically either according to AN 9.43 Sutta on Bodily witness
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html an excerpt
There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel
The above suttas, use the simile
touching with body, to describe the arahant
Do these statements help clarify anything? Only difference is:
in the first case one touching with body knows it through discernment
In the  second case, it says 
He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there
What is the difference between discernment and opening here? I am pretty sure these concepts were used by abhidhammikas, who had no experience in jhana, had no understanding of how they were used in SN 12.68 or SN 12.70. Such statements confuse the faithful readers even more. More they confuse the naive reader, more power the Theravada orthodoxy gains.
Those who are great believers in the 4 immaterial attainments can they explain how the classification scheme offered in MN 70, is supposed to be similes for immaterial states?
MN 70 offers us a mini classification, typical of Abhidhamma. This sutta was surely placed in the canon by abhidhammikas  just like MN 43 and MN 44 were placed to support saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti,  a cessation atypical of Buddha's teachings.
I do not find similes for immaterials  in MN 70, but I do find those for fine-material in DN2.

Further,
body witnes
is used to describe the Arahant in SN12. 68: Kosambi, but the explanations there makes a lot more sense.
In 1937 La Vallée-Poussin published Musila et Nārada, an influential study on two ways of attaining nirvana, exemplified by the monks Musila and Nārada.
One who could not become an arahant is described as
he would not dwell touching it with is body
Over time abhidahmmika's ideas seeped into the canon,  
ubhatobhagga
is a textbook example of this, my humble thinking.
To substantiate this further, will require a lengthy comment, so I will offer short comments, over time. I will do my best as it befits a chat group, where folks can inhale only one or two ideas at a time. Susima sutta SN 12.72 is critical for the understanding of this topic, but I shall save it for another day.
In my next comment I will dwell more on SN 12. 68 Kosambi, also using Indriyasamyutta, specially SN 48.53.
After taking a careful look at Kitagiri sutta MN 70, to me it appears like this sutta is a product of an overzealous  abhdhammika who had nothing to do with his time, but create a complicated classification. Was it a tactic to make lay people believe they cannot handle jhana? the four right concentrations taught by Buddha, by placing layers over it?
Erich Frauwallner at one point offered an opinion like this "that reams and reams of abhidhamma lists, found in Dhammasangani was probably written by Buddhist monks who was under the impression that the more they wrote, more merit they gained'.
Who would disbelieve this if they read Dhammasangani? Has anybody read the long lists in Dhammasangani? Rupert Gethin admitted these lists discouraged folks from reading abhidhamma.
Pulsar's take is that the classification in MN 70, does nothing to enhance the understanding of the doctrine,
this suffering, this dependent origination
but confuse things further.
My best understanding of Dependent Origination came from a translation of the 'Great Discourse on Origination' by Erich Frauwellner. It is a  version more antique than the Theravada version, worth a read, the translation is found in  "Philosophy of Buddhism" by E. Frauwellner. This particular author condenses entire Theravada roughly into 1/4th of this book, rest are about other buddhist schools.
In relation to
touching with body
contents of Susima sutta, SN 12.70 are  very useful. It has been discussed in DW before, so I guess folks here are familiar with it. It is worth another revisit. I shall do so another time. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:13 pm I also tried to figure out what bodily witness means, it has nothing to do with the immaterial jhanas specifically either according to AN 9.43 Sutta on Bodily witness
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html an excerpt
There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel
the rupa and arupa are with a sequel, after going beyond nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ and abiding in saññāvedayitanirodha and having seen with wisdom and deflilements end then it is without a sequel.

if you take different translator,

https://suttacentral.net/an9.43/en/sujato

then arupa and rupa attainment gives you a qualification to become bodily witness in a definite sense, but definite sense only happens after defilements/āsava have reached the end.

--
and its not only this Sutta, but as far as I know from Suttas you need abide IN 'cessation of perception and feeling' for asavas to come to their end.
--
and dukkhanirodha,..every feeling is dukkha.., dukkhanirodha is quite likely that same attainment of cessation of perception and feeling. AND you got to apply wisdom while at it, it is possible a sense consciousness has to see with wisdom, not you.
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

To continue the comment Pulsar started last wed. i.e. Oct 16/2019.
Revisiting Susima sutta, https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
one can plainly see, Susima is accusing the arahants of
being incomplete in their attainments and that if they could not perform the supernatural feats, that they were in fact not truly "arahant" material
In short, it was an insulting put-down.

Buddha through his methodical questioning of Susima makes Susima see that even though he had some fundemental understanding of The Dhamma, it was sorely inadequate. Susima is called
a thief of Dhamma
I thank Dhamma wheel and DNS for the amazing education I receive here.

Discussing Susima, what it is teaching me, is that all one needed in Buddha's day to complete the step to Arahant, was destruction of taints.
The faithful follower of Buddha today, should know how hard this is. Only the relentless practice of the 37 awakening factors can accomplish this.
I have read elsewhere that the magical aspects described in abhinna, like "one becoming many and many becoming one" "walking through walls" "seeing every past life" "being able to read other minds" were later additions. Now I believe this.

What more magic than being able to read one's mind, constantly monitor it, and the dwelling in cessation?. This is what Nagarjuna meant when he said "samsara" is nirvana, but what he failed to say was not everyone is privy to that Nibbana.
Many misunderstood this, but not the Sri Lankan scholar Kalupahana.

A translator's note on Susima sutta, the translator being our very own Thanissaro, who in his Paradox of Becoming chapter 6 says, some modern Theravada monks (celebrities) have woefully neglected to stress the importance of buddhist jhanas, not quite in same words, but Pulsar is a poet. Thanissaro being Thanissaro does not name names, which Pulsar completely understands. :heart:

Note on Susima Sutta
Translator's note: 
This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44(compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43 and AN 9.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

I will continue with my earlier comment on a later date, but as a result of my participation in a discussion
forum this morning on DW,
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35501

with a certain individual of DW who had insisted in the past, that ordinary folks
could not access the 4 buddhist jhanas, essential for right concentration (8th step of the noble magga),
and that therefore this thread should be abolished, I like to remind the rest of you,
of a sutta in MN that directly addresses this issue MN 113
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
an excerpt
Furthermore, a person of no integrity — secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He notices, 'I have gained the attainment of the first jhāna, but these other monks have not gained the attainment of the first jhāna.' He exalts himself for the attainment of the first jhāna and disparages others. This is the quality of a person of no integrity
So, according to the canon, even the untrue man can gain jhanic states of meditation,
but it is the cessation that the untrue individual cannot access.
If you are a person of integrity, that very cessation is
accessible to you. :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Continuing my comment begun on 10/16/19...
sorry it took a while. SN 12.68 is a revealing sutta. it is about Musila, an arahant and Narada, a stream enterer, but not an arahant. 
Arahant's take, an excerpt from Kosambi Sutta
Apart from faith from personal preference apart from tradition, apart from reasoned reflection apart from acceptance of a view, I know this, I see this. Nibbana is the cessation of existence
Later in the sutta Narada the non-arahant is asked the same series of questions.
His response
Friend, though I have clearly seen as it is with correct wisdom "Nibbana is the cessation of existence" I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed
Then follows the simile of the well, the scene is that of a desert. A traveller comes across a well, the  oppressed traveller has neither a rope nor a bucket. He sees the water, but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it, or touch it with his body. 'Na ca kayena phusitva vihareyya" literally,  and he would not dwell having contacted it with his body. It is glossed,
He would not be able to draw out the water
and touch it with body.
Arahant would have the rope and the bucket to draw out the water.  It is a metaphor for the taste of nibbana. Non-arahant is the person lacking the water bucket, hence unable to draw the water out and touch it. For him the breakthrough to the path of arahantship has not occurred.

What distinguishes the arahant from the trainee is not his insight into dependent origination and other principles of Dhamma but the fact that he has used the insight to eradicate all afflictions (taints) 
It is said, he touches the deathless element with his body, as a simile, which is which is accomplished via the 37 factors of enlightenment, inclusive of the 4 buddhist jhanas. 
I shall continue this comment later, when I get the time to  visit Indriya samyutta. SN 48.53.  link to Kosambi sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Continuing comment on "touching the deathless element with his body" of SN 12.68 but now with the help of SN 48.53.
Regarding the trainee:
He does not dwell having contacted that, having obtained that with the name-body (namakaya-the corpus of mental factors). He knows "Beyond there is faculty-the fruit of arahantship" The trainees sees nibbana, the final goal in which the faculties culminate, but cannot enter upon the full experience of it

The Arahat both sees the goal and can experience it here and now.
excerpt 
Again bhikkkhus, a bhikkhu who is a trainee understands the five spiritual faculties-
1. faculty of Faith 2. Faculty of energy 3. faculty of mindfulness 4. faculty of concentration (4 jhanas) 5. faculty of wisdom 
He does not yet dwell having contacted, with the body their destination, their culmination, their fruit, their goal,  but having pierced it through with wisdom he sees. This too is a method by means of which a bhikkhu is a trainee standing on the plane of a trainee understands "I am a trainee"
In the case of the arahant
Again bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is one beyond training understands
the six sensory faculties:
The eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the tactile faculty, the mind faculty.
"These six faculties willl cease completely and totally without remainder--and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in any way"
the last sentence tastes like manna to me.

PS one thing we should remember in this Dhamma exploration or dhamma vicaya (the second factor of the seven factors of enlightenment) is to keep the basics intact. Suttas do not make some things quite clear. For instance when it comes to dependent origination or even the practice of buddhist jhanas, we must always remember we are dealing with a corpus of mental factors, namakaya,
and the understanding of contact in that sense is primary to the undersatanding of Buddha's profound teaching, of way out of suffering.

If one thinks contact can be swept aside, one has truly not seen Buddha's teaching. It is at contact, that impingement with namakaya, that suffering can be stopped most easily,  in order to snap the cycle of Dependent rising. 
Every irrelevant thought that drops into your mind, brush it aside, do not make contact with it,
like every irrelevant sight that comes within your range.
'Chasing after cattle' is used in the canon as a metaphor for chasing after
objects of sensory world.
with love
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

A good example of how misconceptions arise.. 

Wynn's third in a lecture series.
Early Buddhist Meditation: A philosophical investigation
He appears to identify Satipatthana with bare cognition, I have no problem with that, but Wynne translates cognition as Vinnana.The title contains Vinnana-matta. It is a philosophical investigation, and not a meditative exploration, (Wynne admits he has not experienced the jhanas...4th???) but yet, this is a text book case of how misconceptions arise in relation to Jhana. Satipatthana bhavana is none other than a different approach to the 4 jhanas.
My understanding is that when Buddha refers to cognition, he is talking of Sanna, and not Vinnana. Some things can mislead those new to meditation. Once people form conceptions, it is difficult to eliminate them.

Wynne claims that Satipathana sutta is inauthentic. He may have a point, but Satipatthana is a big part of buddhist practice, it is the 7th factor of 8-fold path. Shooting  the messenger does not get the message across. Perhaps some versions of sutta were written by novices, or to accommodate novices. Meditation  is difficult and obscure, but is extremely important to get the message across.
Wynne claims 95% of Satipatthana Samyutta is repetition. Only 5% provides coherence and wisdom. I am not sure about the percentages, but if 5% only provides the key, should not erudite Buddhist scholars dwell on the 5% that is profound and brings wisdom??
Analayo's personal opinions have not helped, some of his ideas can totally mislead.
Rupert Gethin has claimed that in early buddhism, Satipathana was practised differently, which is a clue that scholars are aware of the issue.
"Sayings of the Buddha" A selection of suttas from the Pali Nikaya, by Rupert Gethin.
Wynn's presentation has many good points too. I will revisit later.
Although Wynne calls bare cognition Vinnana-Matta, his explanations that range from 1.00 -20.00 (video) appears as if he talking of Sanna and not Vinnana.
As for Satipatthana bhavana, the sutta on Samudaya in the Satipatthana Samyutta offers a key to Right Mindfulness. SN 47. 32(2).
I wish Wynne had pointed this out to those who are unaware. :heart:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

On a whim, doing some research on Satipatthana sutta, since it is relevant to the understanding of four Buddhist jhanas, the 8th step of the 8-fold path. Without perfectly understanding 7th step Samma Sati, Samma samadhi cannot be correctly comprehended.
I found this comment by Sujato on the web, it was very revealing, and helpful to me in undersrtanding the issue with Satipatthana sutta, a most critical teaching of the Buddha, Ekayana.
Ven. Sujato's comment
Saying it’s a forgery is too much.
It has been clearly subject to a process of evolution, and that process has been more extensive than for most suttas. Crucially though, it is the latest and most inauthentic sections that are most emphasized in modern times.
Given the scale of development, the evolution of the text persisted well into sectarian times, hence I would place it in the very latest strata of texts in the Pali nikayas.
Moreover, it is the only substantial sutta that has been subject to major editing revisions in modern times.
The history is not yet established, but by the 6th, and even it seems the 5th counil in the late 19th century, MN 10 Satipatthana had been expanded with all the additional material on the 4 noble truths from DN 22 Mahasatipatthana.
My guess is that this was a 19th century Burmese innovation. When restored to the likely original core, the most noteworthy thing is that the content that explicitly deals with vipassana disappears: i.e. contemplating rise and fall, etc.
That is, except for the 4th satipatthana, which is where vipassana finds its original home in this teaching. Satipatthana is primarily samatha; i.e. the basic purpose of it is to get into jhana. This is not an inference: it is stated explicitly in the suttas. (MN 44: "the four satipatthanas are the basis for samadhi = cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā)
I do not agree with everything he says, such as "except for the 4th satipatthana, which is where vipassana finds its original home in this teaching"
My take, within every frame of reference, there is potential for insight, during Satipatthana bhavana. Pl take note I am saying bhavana.
But rest of the information provided by this scholar monk is very helpful to folks, who are mislead by the way the main sutta is presented in the canon. And also when Ven. Sujato says
"it is stated explicitly in the suttas. (MN 44: "the four satipatthanas are the basis for samadhi = cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā)
I get indigestion, whenever scholars use MN 43 and MN 44 to prove a point, unless they specifically mention, that these two are lately made up suttas, not as late as the 19th century, however. The two are late, but it happened before the sectarianism, which also goes to show that not everything written in the canon before sectarianism can be considered noble truth, or the truth of Buddha, the Founder.
With love :candle:
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:21 pm "it is stated explicitly in the suttas. (MN 44: "the four satipatthanas are the basis for samadhi = cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā)
I get indigestion, whenever scholars use MN 43 and MN 44 to prove a point, unless they specifically mention, that these two are lately made up suttas, not as late as the 19th century, however. The two are late, but it happened before the sectarianism, which also goes to show that not everything written in the canon before sectarianism can be considered noble truth, or the truth of Buddha, the Founder.
..
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato wrote:Right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion: these things are included in the category of immersion.Yo ca sammāvāyāmo yā ca sammāsati yo ca sammāsamādhi ime dhammā samādhikkhandhe saṅgahitā.
“But ma’am, what is immersion? What things are the foundations of immersion? What things are the prerequisites for immersion? What is the development of immersion?”“Katamo panāyye, samādhi, katame dhammā samādhinimittā, katame dhammā samādhiparikkhārā, katamā samādhibhāvanā”ti?
“Unification of the mind is immersion.“Yā kho, āvuso visākha, cittassa ekaggatā ayaṃ samādhi;
The four kinds of mindfulness meditation are the foundations of immersion.cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā;The four right efforts are the prerequisites for immersion.cattāro sammappadhānā samādhiparikkhārā.
The cultivation, development, and making much of these very same things is the development of immersion.”Yā tesaṃyeva dhammānaṃ āsevanā bhāvanā bahulīkammaṃ, ayaṃ ettha samādhibhāvanā”ti.
Four kinds of mindfulness meditation is included under the category of immersion. cattāro satipaṭṭhānā is under samādhikkhandhe. According to this Sutta mn 44.
You can think it is crafted, but you can't blame the reasoning here which you were not aware and yours accusation sounds uninformed thereof.
---
I get it tho, you see satipatthana as containing jhanas, so it is understandable mistake if you see claim of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā and then claiming it to be false.
--
Similar to reading Sutta that there is only two feelings, sukha and dukkha. Now what if you have read Suttas that there are three feelings? in this case you have enough intelligence and don't get flustered.

In short, it seem you made categorical error.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

Here we go again.. Auto wrote
According to this Sutta mn 44.
You can think it is crafted, but you can't blame the reasoning here which you were not aware and yours accusation sounds uninformed thereof.
I merely said MN 43 and MN 43 are lately crafted. Did I dream it up? No this was according to BB. I merely suggested Ven. Sujato could have used a very early sutta to support his case.
I did not analyze everything presented in MN 44, doubtless there are some good things in these
two suttas, a well versed abhidhammika,
not a perfect one
had to come up with those.
You wrote
I get it tho, you see satipatthana as containing jhanas, so it is understandable mistake if you see claim of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā samādhinimittā and then claiming it to be false.
When did I say this? that Satpatthanna Bhvana contains Jhana.

Then you write
Similar to reading Sutta that there is only two feelings, sukha and dukkha. Now what if you have read Suttas that there are three feelings? in this case you have enough intelligence and don't get flustered.
I was not writing about feelings, so this part of your comment is gobbledegook to me,
then you wrote
In short, it seem you made categorical error.
You are an employee of Samkhya, I am an employee of
Tathagata, so how could you judge me? My standards are different. You can join me when
I begin posting of Rigveda or all other innumerable vedas. Those guys have already done enough damage to the
canon by sneaking Vedic stuff in. Celebrate your accomplishments, I am trying to undo them, so obviously
you feel harmed by me.
Pl revisit me when I post things that you can really comprehend. My thoughts do not quite match with Samkhya thought, even though Samkhya crowd thinks Buddha stole their ideas, it was the Samkhyas that stole
Buddhist concepts and presented them in a twisted fashion, inserting a Brahma within.
With love :candle:
auto
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by auto »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:46 pm When did I say this? that Satpatthanna Bhvana contains Jhana.
Yes, i was wrong, you mean they are very similar. My mistake.
Pulsar wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:46 pm Pl revisit me when I post things that you can really comprehend.
According to some sceptics communication isn't possible:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism wrote: Gorgias, for example, reputedly argued that nothing exists, that even if there were something we could not know it, and that even if we could know it we could not communicate it.
Consider me visiting you as not intentional. And the things i said to you are on point even if they were wrong.
Pulsar
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by Pulsar »

There are two trends in the sutta pitaka with regard to meditation as A. Wynne points out with great clarity in his "Early buddhist meditation" lecture series.
  • How did early disciples of Buddha meditate?
If you must know, stay away from the non-buddhist influences found in the sutta pitaka. 
Oftentimes I have referred to this in the past.
Parayanavagga and Atthkavagga are a starting point in the right direction.
A later development in Buddhism has lead to many misconceptions regarding Jhana and Paticcha-samuppda. Sujatho has written much on this subject in the past.
Overanalysis found in later abhidhamma creates great confusion.
Buyer beware!
don't follow the path of the overzealous scholar.
Follow the path laid down by the Buddha, and use the simplest possible language to understand concepts like consciousness. 
Consciousness is many things, and if one fails to understand the variegated aspects of it, right there is a stumbling block.
To point out a few pitfalls, i shall bring in a comment by Ven. Sujatho.  
The massive confusion created by Abhidhammikas is too vast for one comment to solve.
But at least this comment will lead you to begin to explore the destructive issues created by abhidhammikas of the 13th century.
Sujatho speaking:
Again, I don’t really want to spend too long on this, as I have written extensively on this problem elsewhere. But the basic problem is that the Abhidhamma treats the nāma as “mind”, which it never means in the suttas, and then rūpa becomes “body”, which it sometimes means in the suttas, but not here. (Rūpa is broader than “body”, as it includes the objects of the five sense, and even the objects of the sixth sense that have material properties such as color and position).

This then creates a dualistic mind/body analysis.
The primary mode of analysis is to distinguish between the mind and the body, and again, this is never found in the suttas.
The suttas are much too sophisticated to fall into this kind of trap.
  • They never treat the mind and the body as separate entities,
or posit them as primary forms of analytical categories.
This mind/body dualism lies at the heart of much Western philosophy, such as Descartes, and has been responsible for many of the most insoluble and damaging implications of western philosophy.
Indeed, I believe that the reason we are subject to such an influential extremist materialism today, with its far-reaching and devastating consequences in terms of divorcing fact and value, lies precisely because the West has never escaped the dysfunctional abyss of mind/body dualism.
When the Buddha discussed the mind and the body, he always placed their relation foremost, not their separation.
This is apparent in the commentarial attempt to justify the so-called nāmarūpapariccheda. This means the “cutting between, complete separation of mind and body”.
  • But this is not found anywhere in the EBTs, so to support it they use a passage on meditative vision.
  • But that passage speaks not of the separation between these things, but quite the opposite: that they are bound together, dependent on each other.
Anyway, I could keep going for quite some time on
  • many ways the modern Abhidhamma teachings neither represent the EBTs, nor are philosophically coherent,
nor offer a realistic map of experience, nor provide an adequate basis for addressing the problems that we, as a species, encounter today.
  • We should focus on bringing the Buddha’s teachings alive, not on worshiping the bones of ancient scholastics.
Recently elsewhere, I read I forget the name of the scholar...
"that early Buddhism was too brilliant for the Theravadin to handle"
This is true, only if you consider the late Theravada emanations created by Abhidhamma as representing
entire Theravada.
With love :candle:
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confusedlayman
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Re: Jhanas, Misconceptions that have arisen regarding the Four Rupa Jhanas.

Post by confusedlayman »

How jhana is practiced ancient times during buddhas time?

U need to take information from vedas or upashinadd... they might have detailed way
dont think
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