Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

[SarathW]

Suffering is not a satisfactory translation for the Pali word "Dukkha"?

According to Sutta Sutta series from SN35.140 it appears that the translation of Dukkha as "suffering" appears to be inadequate.
This view is expressed by few who answered to another post about SN35 .140

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34853

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ho ... g/13347/11

For instance, DD post the following and it is a good starting point for the discussion.
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Dukkha has a different meaning thus requires are different translation in the following contexts:

1. Vedana (arising from contact)

2. Four noble truths & dependent origination

3. Three characteristics

[cappuccino]

the Noble truths are deeper than first impression

life is difficult & then you die, might be a better translation

[Zom]

Word for dukkha is dukkha

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Personally, I think regarding sukha as "ease" and then taking dukkha as the opposite, i.e. "dis-ease", is the most workable all-round solution to the translation problem. Not entirely elegant in English, but I believe it to be accurate nonetheless.

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

Dukkha has a different meaning thus requires a different translation in the following contexts:

1. Vedana (arising from contact)

2. Four noble truths/dependent origination

3. Three characteristics

For those unable to abandon clinging to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato and (the new kid on the Western block) Analayo, the above will be problematic.

[cappuccino]

For those unable to abandon clinging to Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato and (the new kid on the Western block) Analayo, the above will be problematic.

So you select who agrees with you.

Since they speak of rebirth.

[DooDoot]

So you select who agrees with you. Not wise.

I select what is real.

[cappuccino]

So you select who agrees with you. Not wise.

I select what is real.

But you determine what is real?

[SarathW]

Greetings,

Personally, I think regarding sukha as "ease" and then taking dukkha as the opposite, i.e. "dis-ease", is the most workable all-round solution to the translation problem. Not entirely elegant in English, but I believe it to be accurate nonetheless.

Metta,
Paul.

Good proposal Retro but you can't use this for objects.
My original post was based on by translating Dukkha of objects as suffering.
According to the Sutta series, I provided the word Dukkha is applied to say Eye, objects (sight) and eye-consciousness I suppose.
Please read all nine Sutta's in this series.

[DooDoot]

But you determine what is real?

Since they speak of rebirth.

Acharya Buddharakkhita speaks of 'rebirth' but has no problems with translating 'dukkha':

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā ti yadā paññāya passati Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html

[Sam Vara]

Dukkha has a different meaning thus requires are different translation in the following contexts:

1. Vedana (arising from contact)

2. Four noble truths & dependent origination

3. Three characteristics

I'm thinking "dissatisfaction". I'm not completely satisfied with it, though...

[sunnat]

Some things become funny if you use unsatisfactory. The pain from having a leg break off is unsatisfactory. Dying is unsatisfactory. Being ill is... And so on. The unsatisfactory bit is just the tip of the iceberg. That part of very real, deep suffering that is hidden behind the subtle neither pleasant nor unpleasant feelings, ignorance.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Sarath,

Personally, I think regarding sukha as "ease" and then taking dukkha as the opposite, i.e. "dis-ease", is the most workable all-round solution to the translation problem. Not entirely elegant in English, but I believe it to be accurate nonetheless.

Good proposal Retro but you can't use this for objects.
My original post was based on by translating Dukkha of objects as suffering.

Were they dukkha for the Buddha? No.

It appears that you're taking these classifications of dukkha and assuming them to be fait accompli.

According to the Sutta series, I provided the word Dukkha is applied to say Eye, objects (sight) and eye-consciousness I suppose.
Please read all nine Sutta's in this series.

I already have, previously... I just regard the meaning as different to your fatalistic interpretation.

Metta,
Paul.

[Kim OHara]

Greetings,

Personally, I think regarding sukha as "ease" and then taking dukkha as the opposite, i.e. "dis-ease", is the most workable all-round solution to the translation problem. Not entirely elegant in English, but I believe it to be accurate nonetheless.

Metta,
Paul.

Good proposal Retro but you can't use this for objects.
My original post was based on by translating Dukkha of objects as suffering.
According to the Sutta series, I provided the word Dukkha is applied to say Eye, objects (sight) and eye-consciousness I suppose.
Please read all nine Sutta's in this series.

No single English word matches all the meanings of "dukkha" so we have to use a range of words to translate it according to context, or use only one word and put up with misleading translations, or leave it untranslated (as Zom said).
Years ago I compiled a list of words which have been used to translate "dukkha". I can't find it now but it included "dis-ease" (awkward, as Paul says, but accurate), unsatisfactoriness, dissatisfaction, suffering, stress, affliction, unhappiness, pain ... and more.

At the time I was particularly irritated by a very common translation of the First Noble Truth, "All life is suffering," which I thought was way too negative. "Unsatisfactoriness is inherent in all life's experiences," would, I think, be closer. It's not as catchy, though.


Kim

[DooDoot]

I'm thinking "dissatisfaction". I'm not completely satisfied with it, though...

Vedana & the four noble truths appear to be akin to 'phenomenology'. The three characteristics appear to be akin to 'ontology' (AN 3.136). Therefore 'dissatisfaction' appears non-applicable to 'ontology'. Sutta series from SN 35.140 appears to be 'ontology' rather than 'phenomenology'.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.141/en/sujato
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.144/en/sujato

First Noble Truth... "Unsatisfactoriness is inherent in all life's experiences," would, I think, be closer. It's not as catchy, though.

Difficult to understand how you can come to such a conclusion. Where does the First Noble Truth say it applies to all life's experiences?