How was it technically verified in Theravada?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23579
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zom,
Zom wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:29 pm There is no such sutta.
I'll take that as a challenge to find it. 8-)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23579
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:32 pm I'll take that as a challenge to find it. 8-)
I haven't found precisely what I was looking for, but I have found...
AN 4.187 wrote:“Master Gotama, could a bad person know of a bad person: ‘This fellow is a bad person’?” “That’s impossible, brahmin, it can’t happen.”

“Could a bad person know of a good person: ‘This fellow is a good person’?” “That too is impossible, it can’t happen.”

“Master Gotama, could a good person know of a good person: ‘This fellow is a good person’?” “That, brahmin, is possible.”


“Could a good person know of a bad person: ‘This fellow is a bad person’?” “That too is possible.”

“It’s incredible, Master Gotama, it’s amazing, how well said this was by Master Gotama: ‘It’s impossible, it can’t happen, that a bad person could know … But it is possible that a good person could know …’
AN 4.192 wrote:"'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning': Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
MN 129 wrote:There are these three characteristics, signs, and manifestations of an astute person. What three? An astute person thinks well, speaks well, and acts well. If an astute person didn’t think well, speak well, and act well, then how would the astute know of them: ‘This fellow is astute, a good person’? But since an astute person does think well, speak well, and act well, then the astute do know of them: ‘This fellow is astute, a good person’.
MN 110 wrote:Monks, could a person of no integrity know of a person of no integrity: ‘This is a person of no integrity’?” — “No, lord.”

“Good, monks. It’s impossible, there’s no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of no integrity: ‘This is a person of no integrity.’

“Could a person of no integrity know of a person of integrity: ‘This is a person of integrity’?” — “No, lord.”

“Good, monks. It’s impossible, there’s no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of integrity: ‘This is a person of integrity.’”….

“Now, monks, could a person of integrity know of a person of no integrity: ‘This is a person of no integrity’?” — “Yes, lord.”

“Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of no integrity: ‘This is a person of no integrity.’

“Could a person of integrity know of a person of integrity: ‘This is a person of integrity’?” — “Yes, lord.”

“Good, monks. It is possible that a person of integrity would know of a person of integrity: ‘This is a person of integrity.’”
MN 27 wrote:"Sir, I have come here from the presence of Gotama the contemplative."

"And what does a wise person think about Gotama the contemplative's acuity of discernment?"

"Sir, who am I to know Gotama the contemplative's acuity of discernment? Wouldn't one have to be his equal to know his acuity of discernment?"
Whilst these aren't related specifically to the ariya levels, they are sutta examples of someone who doesn't have a particular characteristic being unable to accurately discern it in others.

If I think of any keywords that might help me more accurately find what I'm looking for, I'll bring additional suttas back to the conversation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13670
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:47 pm Greetings,

Not sure you're being entirely consistent here, David... or did you change your mind as you went?

:tongue:
Ha! That's right, I wasn't very clear. Since it's debatable about perfect sila in a sotapanna, I'm referring more to sakadagami or higher definitely having perfect sila. Even for a sotapanna, there are some references which could be interpreted as having unbroken precepts, for example:

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" Anguttara Nikaya 9.12

I was assuming the OP was referring mostly to arahants, which in that case the precepts would certainly be perfect sila.
User avatar
Antaradhana
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:56 pm
Location: Saratov, Russia

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Antaradhana »

In theory, any creatures who see the aura of the Buddha and Arahants, at least know that they are unusual, unique, superpowerful creatures, and then some of the devas may become interested, begin to observe, and even stay in our world for a while to listen to Dhamma. Thus, Buddha and Arahants attract many devas.

It is also possible for beings who are able to see the minds of others (it is not necessarily the Buddhist Aryans), unless the Buddha or Arahant, for some special reason, specifically does not want to close his mind for them.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".
Pulsar
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Pulsar »

SDC wrote
there is a debate about whether sotapannas can deliberately break sila or not
Retrofuturist wrote
I know about the sutta incidence of the drunk sotapanna that Nanavira Thera refers to in his Letters
True, there is a sutta in the connected series, that supports this. After the man died, Buddha declared the drunk man to be a stream winner. The gathered Sakyans however,
deplored, grumbled, and complained about it, saying "Now who here won't be a stream winner when the blessed one has declared a dead drunk to be a stream winner?"
not in the same exact words.
I guess folks were jealous that a man could drink and still be clever enough to be stream winner. :)
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13670
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by DNS »

I was the one who wrote what you quoted at the top of your post, not SDC.

In regard to Sarakani, the one who drank alcohol and became a sotapanna, the Buddha remarked that, "Sarakani the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death." Samyutta Nikaya 55.24 The lay person Sarakani practiced the moral precepts in full before his death, thus, suggesting that one cannot be a stream-entrant or higher if one violates the moral precepts. In the more positive way, one who follows the precepts and practices diligently, stream-entry or higher can be attained.

It does however indicate that becoming a sotapanna is not so elusive as some believe, since apparently Sarakani was partaking of alcohol very close to the time of attaining stream-entry, however, giving it up at least moments (or more) before.
SarathW
Posts: 15001
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by SarathW »

giving it up at least moments (or more) before (his death)
:goodpost: from David

Importance of last thought moment is something we have not discussed in this forum much.
So I open a new post to discuss this matter.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 23579
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:54 pm
giving it up at least moments (or more) before (his death)
:goodpost: from David

Importance of last thought moment is something we have not discussed in this forum much.
So I open a new post to discuss this matter.
Except that none of that is how alcohol works.

The body removes alcohol from the bloodstream at a rate of approximately one standard drink per hour.

It's not a matter of "giving it up".... it's a matter of "sobering up", and that has nothing whatsover to do with thought moments.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
SarathW
Posts: 15001
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by SarathW »

I agree Retro.
You have to be sober in your last moment of course!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Pulsar
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Pulsar »

DNS I apologize for the error, yes you are the one who said that.
A glass of wine with supper, can lead one to make careless mistakes. One will be
forgiven just as Sarakani was. :candle:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:14 pm After the man died, Buddha declared the drunk man to be a stream winner. I guess folks were jealous that a man could drink and still be clever enough to be stream winner.
Are you sure? Are you sure when the man attained stream-entry he was drunk or habitually drank? Possibly the man had given up drinking prior to attaining stream-entry. The Buddha remarked that, "Sarakani the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death." Samyutta Nikaya 55.24
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Pulsar
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote
Are you sure? Are you sure when the man attained stream-entry he was drunk or habitually drank?
How can I be sure, I was not there. The beauty of Sarakani was he could handle a drink, and also handle stream entry. Who knows in which order these things happened. The magnanimity of Buddha who declared a man who used to drink as a stream enterer, and the compilers who chose to include the story in the canon, impressed me.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:53 am How can I be sure, I was not there.
Pulsar. If you were not there, when why post the following, as though it is true & factual?
The beauty of Sarakani was he could handle a drink, and also handle stream entry. :roll:
Also, where does Dhamma say "handling drink" is "beautiful"? :shrug:

The impression is you appear to continue to assert:

1. The man drank when he attained stream-entry

2. The man continue to drink after he attained stream-entry.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 3265
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Bundokji »

I think the quality of our conscious experience affects our physical appearances. It is very likely that people with high attainments develop physical features that are subtle or undetectable by those with lower attainments.

The criteria about the perfection of sila might gives the impression that conventional morality (the precepts) are universally or ultimately true/real

When connecting morality to true knowledge or seeing things as they really are, it is easier to easier to imagine why either adhering to or breaking the precepts can be done for the wrong reasons by the unenlightened, but it is more difficult to understand why an Arahantship would necessitate not breaking them considering their conventional nature and that the Arahant transcended the psychological needs to both adhering to or breaking them.

For example, would an Arahant lie to save lives? if not, the Arahant's morality would be akin to Kant's categorical imperative, but if he does, it would be more like consequentialism.

I admit that the above example can be a form of false dilemma :tongue:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Pulsar
Posts: 1072
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How was it technically verified in Theravada?

Post by Pulsar »

Bundokji wrote
It is very likely that people with high attainments develop physical features that are subtle or undetectable by those with lower attainments
this is so true, therefore how can we judge Sarakani on a later date, based on the data that he drank, therefore broke a precept.
There are some among the ordinary who can drown a couple of drinks and yet function far superior to those
who never drank. This could be purely the luck of their genetic makeup, that enable the body to detoxify the toxins right away. Sarakani may have belonged to this category, where some can drink, but not let it affect them.
On the other hand he might have had a cancer, a physical ailment, creating unbearable pain,
that drinks helped pacify. We must not be in a hurry to judge others.
I have the greatest respect for Sarakani who proved to us, that guarding the precepts
is not everything. Individual concerns have to be taken into account.
PS Besides what is the point of
perfection of sila
if that perfection is not accompanied by perfection of wisdom, and perfection of concentration (4 material jhanas) from the buddhist
point of view. Thank you Bundokji.
:candle:
Post Reply