Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

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confusedlayman
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:50 pm
confusedlayman wrote: no conciousness activity.
your current view is annihilationism
how its annihilationism? I never said self destroyed. I said compound things that arise from conditions cease because no way that cause and condition arise again for arhant
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pegembara
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by pegembara »

Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.
When seeing the world with discernment
as on a par with grass & twigs,
finding no 'mine-ness,'
thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'
he feels no sorrow.

This body will break up
and there will not be another.

The all-knowing,
all-seeing conqueror:
He is my mentor.
Greatly compassionate teacher,
all the world's healer,
this doctrine is his,
unexcelled, leading to ending.
Because of his teachings
is this lack of sorrow acquired.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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cappuccino
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by cappuccino »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:38 pm
cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:50 pm
confusedlayman wrote: no conciousness activity.
your current view is annihilation-ism
how its annihilation-ism?
if you speak of annihilation I will say your view is annihilation-ism
Art requires philosophy, just as philosophy requires art. Otherwise, what would become of beauty? ―Paul Gauguin
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dhammacoustic
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by dhammacoustic »

there are two consciousnesses , absolute and relative.....consciousness-as-a-temporal-experience, namely vinnana [in theravada terminology], is the latter. nibbana is the cessation of that..
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman »

Can you explain about the latter type of conciousness ? Or give sutta so i read it?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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bridif1
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by bridif1 »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:11 pm if you speak of annihilation I will say your view is annihilation-ism
Hi Cappuccino!

I think that context is always something important to be considered. We have to look at things not in isolation, but in their relation with its surrounding context. One should always strive to find the original intention behind a message.

If you see the word "annihilation", that's not enough to assert that one is an "annihilationist".

AN 8.12
“And in what way could one rightly say of me: ‘The ascetic Gotama is an annihilationist who teaches his Dhamma for the sake of annihilation and thereby guides his disciples’? For I assert the annihilation of lust, hatred, and delusion; I assert the annihilation of the numerous kinds of bad unwholesome qualities. It is in this way that one could rightly say of me: ‘The ascetic Gotama is an annihilationist who teaches his Dhamma for the sake of annihilation and thereby guides his disciples.’
Kind regards!
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by dhammacoustic »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:25 pm Can you explain about the latter type of conciousness ? Or give sutta so i read it?
vinnana? simply “phenomenal consciousness” , it's relative..

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman »

dhammacoustic wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:26 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:25 pm Can you explain about the latter type of conciousness ? Or give sutta so i read it?
vinnana? simply “phenomenal consciousness” , it's relative..

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
sorry I mean the first one, not one that arises based on contact. can u tell me sutra about absolute conciousness? what is nutrient for that?, how it arise? what condition it depend?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

bridif1 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:14 pm If you see the word "annihilation", that's not enough to assert that one is an "annihilationist".

AN 8.12
Obviously, AN 8.12 uses the word "annihilationist" as a metaphor rather than as a "doctrine", as it is usually used.
bridif1 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:14 pmBy chance I was just reading an essay on the role of mamarupa and viññana in Dependent Co-arising. There, the author seem to suggest that with the gradual destruction of ignorance and cognitive distortions, there comes the destruction of sense and designation (quoting SN 7.6).
In SN 7.6 & elsewhere (such as DN 11 & MN 49), the word "uparujjhati" obviously does not mean "destruction" or "kayo". If "sense designations" were destroyed, how could the Buddha teach meditation, such as the designations "long" breathing and "short" breathing? Jata the Brahmin did not get enlightened in SN 7.6 (until after he later became a bhikkhu). Try to study the teachings with common sense. Anything that is ENLIGHTENMENT is PERMANENT. There can be no permanent destruction of Hindu nama-rupa, namely, the designations of long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form, etc. That is why in DN 11, no one got enlightened.
bridif1 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:14 pmIn this sense, salayatana and phassa cease as well, because the dyad external/objective-internal/subjective dissapears.
The above sounds like more Hindu Advaita. The suttas obviously do not teach the above, as follows:
In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

SN 12.45
The six external bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six external bases should be understood. ’ This is the second set of six.

If anyone says, ‘Forms are self’…That is why it is not tenable for anyone to say, ‘Forms are self.’ Thus the eye is not self, forms are not self.

MN 148
Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the wise man experiences pleasure and pain. What, bhikkhus, is the distinction here, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the wise man and the fool?”

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

SN 12.19
SN 12.19, above, says nothing about "destroying the dyad of contact".

Again:
Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.93/en/bodhi
MN 43 say wisdom & consciousness are co-joined; that there cannot be any wisdom without consciousness. But you appear to be say when the "dyad" is destroyed, then consciousness must be destroyed. If so, how can wisdom for awakening ever occur? :shrug:


:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:15 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by bridif1 »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:50 am
bridif1 wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:14 pm If you see the word "annihilation", that's not enough to assert that one is an "annihilationist".

AN 8.12
Obviously, AN 8.12 uses the word "annihilationist" as a metaphor rather than as a "doctrine", as it is usually used.
Hi again!

Yes, I agree. This is what I tried to say.
I was trying to explain that if someone says "Nibbana is the annihilation of greed, hate and delusion", I wouldn't think of this answer inmediately as wrong and and as a evidence for thinking such view is an annihilationist one.

I was trying to explain that one should see words in the context of the message, and not in isolation.

Kind regards!
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by bridif1 »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:50 am In SN 7.6 & elsewhere (such as DN 11 & MN 49), the word "uparujjhati" obviously does not mean "destruction" or "kayo". If "sense designations" were destroyed, how could the Buddha teach meditation, such as the designations "long" breathing and "short" breathing? Jata the Brahmin did not get enlightened in SN 7.6 (until after he later became a bhikkhu). Try to study the teachings with common sense. Anything that is ENLIGHTENMENT is PERMANENT. There can be no permanent destruction of Hindu nama-rupa, namely, the designations of long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form, etc. That is why in DN 11, no one got enlightened.
I don't know what the author would've said to these points, so I won't answer for him.
Instead, I could just hypothesize and say that maybe the logic would be the same than in the case of arahants understanding the conventionality of identity. Understading a convention is not the same as believing the convention to be ultimately true. Conventions are useful, especially when everyone using that convention understand it as a useful tool, and nothing more.

In this sense, "long" and "short" are conventional designations, because there's no intrinsic feature that allows one to point where the "shortness" of a thing ends, and where the "longness" of it starts. Long and short are useful in comparison and relative to some standards; but that standard measure is subjective in its nature, because it is subjectively and arbitrarily decided.

Also, I deeply mistrust in "common sense". In my opinion, the Dhamma is so deep because of its contraintuive nature.
"Intuition" and "common sense" are words that most people use as a synonym for "obvious at first glance".

Kind regards!
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 am Instead, I could just hypothesize and say that maybe the logic would be the same than in the case of arahants understanding the conventionality of identity.
Sorry but identity is utterly destroyed in an Arahant. When an Arahant speaks "I" and "mine" it is only viewed as a "thought". But when an Arahant looks at Mt Everest, it remains 29,000 feet. If an Arahant had to walk across a creek and could not discern the depth of the creek, the Arahant might drown.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 amUnderstanding a convention is not the same as believing the convention to be ultimately true. Conventions are useful, especially when everyone using that convention understand it as a useful tool, and nothing more.
The above sounds like non-sense in respect to Hindu nama-rupa. Long (6 feet) and short (six inches) remain the same, whether ultimately or in convention.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 amIn this sense, "long" and "short" are conventional designations, because there's no intrinsic feature that allows one to point where the "shortness" of a thing ends, and where the "longness" of it starts.
If Buddha can't discern between long & short then he might die when thinking 7 days will be required for a 14 day journey.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 amLong and short are useful in comparison and relative to some standards; but that standard measure is subjective in its nature, because it is subjectively and arbitrarily decided.
The Buddha taught the destruction of suffering is the destruction of craving. Nothing to do with long & short. Long & short don't cause suffering. Not Buddhism.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 amAlso, I deeply mistrust in "common sense". In my opinion, the Dhamma is so deep because of its contraintuive nature.
It seems like you mistrust giving up craving. Regardless, you seem unwilling to accept the Buddhist position that any enlightened state in an Arahant is permanent.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:14 am"Intuition" and "common sense" are words that most people use as a synonym for "obvious at first glance".
Moving further & further away from Buddhism. Designations of long, short, good, evil, foul, fair, etc, don't bring suffering. Perception of evil only brings suffering when anger arises with it. It seems obvious you are posting Hindu Advaita or Non-Duality rather than the Buddhist ending of craving. SN 7.6, DN 11, MN 49, etc, appear obviously teachings to Brahmins using Brahmin doctrinal terminology. The only difference in SN 7.6 is the Brahmin had faith in the Buddha and became a bhikkhu. In the other suttas, they ignored the Buddha. They clung to their Hindu nama-rupa. :smile:
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by bridif1 »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:35 am ...
Please, DD, I'm trying to have a friendly conversation. I really don't understand why every discussion has to have such hostile and ironic to it. You've said in the past to not judge others, but I see you doing it all the time. There's no need for personal attacks.
I am, just like everyone else here, trying to learn stuff. And I'm really grateful for all your help.

Going back to the topic...
In the example of the Mt. Everest, you've shown me an objective measure of it: 29.000 feet. Everyone using the same definition of "feet" as a unit for measure, and everyone using the same instruments would agree on this height.

On the other hand, we have the words "long" and "short". Compared to an human, the Mt. Everest is long; compared to the Sun, the Mt. is short. In this sense we say that "long" and "short" are relative and subjective concepts for comparison.

I disagree with you: conventional terms can cause a lot of problems, especially when taken as part of the objects themselves.
"Long" and "short" are not the best examples for this, but other more subjective pairs of opposite show this more evidently:
"Beautiful" and "ugly" are conventional terms, and depend mostly on opinion and preferences. But people use to take these adjectives as being part of the objects themselves rather than part of their learned interpretations of the sense-data. Because of this, people quarrel over who's right and who's wrong.

Considering all of the above, understaning the conventionality of some concepts puts an end to quarrel over subjective issues.

I comprehend what you say about arahants having destroyed the conceit "I am". I agree.
I think I'm saying the same thing as you are: arahants understand the conventionality of identity, and do not believe on it as a actual, ultimate reality anymore. Even so, an arahant can still talk to others by "their" birth name, even when that name is only a useful convention for society's needs.

In sum, someone (not me, necessarily) could say that contact with such mental entities has ceased, and so, consciousness wouldn't be able to arise for those eradicated mental objects.

I want to be emphatic on this:
This is not view, because I'm just starting to understand the nuances of DO.

Thanks, again, for engaging in this conversation.

Kind regards!
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by confusedlayman »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:59 pm
dhammacoustic wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:26 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:25 pm Can you explain about the latter type of conciousness ? Or give sutta so i read it?
vinnana? simply “phenomenal consciousness” , it's relative..

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
sorry I mean the first one, not one that arises based on contact. can u tell me sutra about absolute conciousness? what is nutrient for that?, how it arise? what condition it depend?
can someone enlighten me in this question that I asked? thanks- very confused layman
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Nirvana is the Cessation of Consciousness

Post by DooDoot »

bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am hostile and ironic
The above sounds like dualities. :) Btw, I have answered many of your questions. How is my generosity & benevolence something "hostile"? How is my engaging you to exercise your critical thinking (yoniso manasikara) something "hostile"? :shrug:
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am You've said in the past to not judge others, but I see you doing it all the time. There's no need for personal attacks.
See how the above is not regarded as "conventions".
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am"Long" and "short" are not the best examples for this
Sorry but the above are the proper examples because they are the literal examples found in the texts you appear to claim are about enlightenment.
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 am"Beautiful" and "ugly" are conventional terms, and depend mostly on opinion and preferences.
"Beautiful" and "ugly" are called "themes" ("nimitta") rooted in lust, hatred & delusion, per the suttas (such as MN 43). The suttas you are asserting are about enlightenment do not refer to "beautiful" and "ugly" in relation to nama-rupa (naming-forms).
bridif1 wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:59 amBut people use to take these adjectives as being part of the objects themselves rather than part of their learned interpretations of the sense-data. Because of this, people quarrel over who's right and who's wrong.
The Buddha taught the theme of "beautiful" results in "lust". "Lust" sets the mind & body on fire. :shock:
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