Monastics and suicide

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by MettaDevPrac »

thepea wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:37 pm It seems like much of this could be avoided if monastics were taken under the wing of a senior established monk and periods of reporting were required. Also stricter rules regarding technology, manditory periods of strict practice where noble silence is observed including computer communication.
You seem to wish Theravadadin rules and customs for monks to be rewritten, or additions and adjustments made, and existing Monastic Law be abandoned. You seem to think, despite evidence to the contrary presented and discussed, that your brand of Dhamma under S. N. Goenka, can avoid missing extreme distress, or apparent failures of teachers. You also seem to be encouraging distrust between Theravadin monastics and laity over the disciplines of monastic life, suggesting you have confidence in greater austerity.

Is that accurate, in part or in whole?
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thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:43 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:37 pm It seems like much of this could be avoided if monastics were taken under the wing of a senior established monk and periods of reporting were required. Also stricter rules regarding technology, manditory periods of strict practice where noble silence is observed including computer communication.
You seem to wish Theravadadin rules and customs for monks to be rewritten, or additions and adjustments made, and existing Monastic Law be abandoned. You seem to think, despite evidence to the contrary presented and discussed, that your brand of Dhamma under S. N. Goenka, can avoid missing extreme distress, or apparent failures of teachers. You also seem to be encouraging distrust between Theravadin monastics and laity over the disciplines of monastic life, suggesting you have confidence in greater austerity.

Is that accurate, in part or in whole?
In part.
In no way do I feel that in the early stages of practice can things like depression and suicidal thoughts be avoided. They need to be observed and the wisdom experienced as seen as a result of such thoughts and their effects on body and mind must be understood at a depth where they are let go of.
A monastic in early stages can practice accordingly bringing much of this great sufferings to the surface. A monk like most people may say “I don’t like this” and not wish to experience this again. A monk can spend years upon years suppressing these intense past traumas, keeping busy studying, translating, compute ring, etc... all this is practicing avoidance.
IMO monastics should begin with rigorous training with periods of breaks in between as required. A head ajahn who has traversed the path a great distance should watch over monks and keep them on the path.
Mind is tricky and inexperienced monastics need guidance and to be watched over closely to make sure practice is being done in balance and not to lax or to intense.
Middle way.
Unfortunately I have not been convinced otherwise that said monastic was practicing correctly for the decades he was in robes, it seems that over this period of time if practicing correctly even modestly these dark Klammas would have plenty opportunity to arise and wisdom would eradicate them, or at least elevate their vibration to a level that one is not overwhelmed by them to a degree to committ suicide.
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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino »

from what I understand this monk had a lot of desire

he despaired over this, thinking it futile to combat

well, it's not futile, just difficult
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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Unfortunately, I have not been convinced otherwise that said monastic was practicing correctly for the decades he was in robes
after age 35, momentum is lost

it really isn't easy anymore
MettaDevPrac
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by MettaDevPrac »

thepea wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:37 pm .... A monk can spend years upon years suppressing these intense past traumas, keeping busy studying, translating, compute ring, etc... all this is practicing avoidance.
This seems highly speculative, and more. AFAIK it comes from one who has not taken ordination in this life.
Unfortunately I have not been convinced otherwise that said monastic was practicing correctly for the decades he was in robes, it seems that over this period of time if practicing correctly even modestly these dark Klammas would have plenty opportunity to arise and wisdom would eradicate them, or at least elevate their vibration to a level that one is not overwhelmed by them to a degree to committ suicide.
I don't judge that monk. Please, don't appoint yourself to that role.

This might be helpful reading: Devadatta and confidence in austerity. https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-ss10/en/brahmali
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thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:39 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:37 pm .... A monk can spend years upon years suppressing these intense past traumas, keeping busy studying, translating, compute ring, etc... all this is practicing avoidance.
This seems highly speculative, and more. AFAIK it comes from one who has not taken ordination in this life.
Unfortunately I have not been convinced otherwise that said monastic was practicing correctly for the decades he was in robes, it seems that over this period of time if practicing correctly even modestly these dark Klammas would have plenty opportunity to arise and wisdom would eradicate them, or at least elevate their vibration to a level that one is not overwhelmed by them to a degree to committ suicide.
I don't judge that monk. Please, don't appoint yourself to that role.

This might be helpful reading: Devadatta and confidence in austerity. https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-ss10/en/brahmali
I’m not judging, and whether I have ordained has nothing to do with understanding dhamma.
I’m asking questions which I have not received an explanation to. I have concerns with the monastic community in general.
thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:10 pm
thepea wrote: Unfortunately, I have not been convinced otherwise that said monastic was practicing correctly for the decades he was in robes
after age 35, momentum is lost

it really isn't easy anymore
What are you talking about?
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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: What are you talking about?
momentum
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:23 am
thepea wrote: What are you talking about?
momentum
Not following you.
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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Not following you.
if you're moving toward a goal, there is momentum

speed in that direction
thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:27 am
thepea wrote: Not following you.
if you're moving toward a goal, there is momentum

speed in that direction
Sure, but what does the age 35 have to do with that?
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cappuccino
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by cappuccino »

thepea wrote: Sure, but what does the age 35 have to do with that?
that is the transition to adulthood
Talisman25
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by Talisman25 »

The late Ajahn under discussion certainly knew the Dhamma and In my very humble opinion, his knowledge of the Suttas appeared encyclopaedic.

But something wasn’t quite right. It was apparent even when he was in Sri Lanka that he had reached a point where he was struggling with personal reoccurring and intrusive memories of past events. Out of respect, I will not go further into the apparent reason for those memories, let us speak generically.

The memories were obviously at a subjective level: both intrusive and very disturbing.

They were objectively speaking: memories that had arisen, that gave rise to feelings of strong aversion.

The resulting thoughts were prolific and resulted in an expression of determination to bring them into the forefront of the mind and eradicate them through meditation ( The late Ajahn with his direct way of speaking had dismissed the dry-insight approach, in his own inimitable way as bullshit.)

The form of that meditation process by a Therevadian monk could therefore only be by means of Samadhi or Vipissana. It is apparent that the method chosen, was not that of temporary suppression through tranquility or Samadhi.

A question arises: was the confrontational and martial approach to digging out, then eliminating the memory, insight or Vipissana or something entirely not insight or Vipissana. I would like to return to that question at a later point.

In the context of learning something from all of this, and endeavouring to depersonalise the matter and just discuss the Dhamma, may I say this:

Let us call that disturbing memory: “ The bad memory.” I am sure that we all have them to a lesser or greater extent because we are human, so let’s depersonalise the subject matter further, and in a generic sense call it: “ A bad memory.”

As a starting point, from the perspective of Therevadian Dhamma and the Suttas:

What is “ A bad memory” ?
thepea
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:42 am
thepea wrote: Sure, but what does the age 35 have to do with that?
that is the transition to adulthood
Ok..., but what is your point what is the difference practicing dhamma at 22 vs 87?
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Re: Monastics and suicide

Post by thepea »

Talisman25 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:44 am
What is “ A bad memory” ?
In dhamma there is no bad memory.
There is craving and aversion, we are to cultivate meta and loving kindness towards past traumas. Compassion and forgiveness soften and allow us to penetrate and explore these past traumas. Wisdom will arise and these past traumas will lose their grip on us we will have liberated them to a certain degree.
Also we are never to look to bring a certain trauma to the surface, dhamma practice should be natural. If your working with craving then so be it if working with aversion so be it.
It is normal for a meditator in the beginning to work primarily with aversion, an experienced meditator with decades of practice should have had opportunity for these deep aversions to come to the surface naturally and have plenty oportunity to work through them or greatly weaken them.
Something does not sit well with this monks approach and I fear he was not practicing dhamma but was practicing avoidance and using internet as an escape and a way to feel better about himself when these past traumas came to surface. As stated I feel that there are many Theravada monastics doing the same thing. Running from country to country visiting different monesteries and preaching there nonsensical BS to unsuspecting layfolk. The other monks out of politeness do not greatly support ssid monks but never question them and still allow them to teach.
It is a systemic problem in Buddhism. I know there are good monks out there I have met many, but there are say 25% or more that are mere confused children and should be disciplined and never left out of sight, and should not be allowed to teach in their current mental states.
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