Monastics and suicide

[thepea]

whenever I considered suicide:
either it was cruel to others, or my future was good

Incomplete.

my future was good

Itch

[cappuccino]

Itch

?

[thepea]

Itch

?

That’s the itch you feel you need to scratch.

[cappuccino]

That’s the itch you feel you need to scratch.

you mean talking here?

[thepea]

That’s the itch you feel you need to scratch.

you mean talking here?

Topic

[cappuccino]

suicide is just another topic

I'm not conflicted about suicide

[thepea]

suicide is just another topic

I'm not conflicted about suicide

Topic is
Subject of future.

[cappuccino]

I foresaw my future was good

which is now the present

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

...
Committing suicide is not an offence of defeat. If one fails, it is an offence of wrong-doing. Euthanasia is an offence of defeat.

...
An arahat would never attempt suicide. He has no aversion .

...
An arahant would not be reprimanded because an arahant would not attempt suicide, as noted by robert above. Bhikkhu Pesala is referring to a bhikkhu who is not an arahant.

the monk Godhika's suicide:

• "a dangerously critical sutta"

• "Even certain educated people have misinterpreted this and insulted the Dhamma. "

• "Some have even committed suicide through misunderstanding."

I wish to now introduce to you a dangerously critical sutta in the Māra Saṁyutta. Take care. Even certain educated people have misinterpreted this and insulted the Dhamma. Some have even committed suicide through misunderstanding. Although it has caused a lot of confusion, this Godhika Sutta touches the Dhamma at its depth. This is how it goes. When the Buddha was residing in Rajagaha, the monk Godhika lived in a cell on the slope of the Isigili rock. Striving hard in meditation he attained a worldly state of concentration or samādhi called ‘sāmayika ceto vimutti’. Due to some mysterious reason as his mind touched on the samādhi, it slipped away. He made the highest effort again and again but for the second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth time the samādhi slipped away. In deep disappointment he decided to commit suicide by severing his neck.

• "In deep disappointment": which clearly shows that the monk Godhika was not an arahant (nor Non-returner, nor Once-returner [implied from the word "deep" qualifing the disappointment, imo], yet, at the time of the act.

The Law of Dependent Arising / Page - 418
Ven. K. Nanananda

[Talisman25]

Monks are Human.

The Human realm is one of the 31 realms of Samsara.

Humans generally have a predisposed wrong view of self.

Dhamma teaches us the right view: Anatta.

Anatta teaches us that there is no self, only 5 clinging Khandas.

The Khandas are controlled moment by moment by either a light (Dhamma) or dark (Avijja) force.

In each micro-moment only one can be in control, and things can change very quickly should one loses Sati during a perfect storm of Dukkha due to the rollercoaster of life events.

If we lose Sati, we lose Dhamma, and Avijja gains control.

When Avijja is in the drivers seat, then we start believing again in a self (Atta) and that we are actually that self.

Then again through Avijja the demons that are Kilesas have control of the Khandas and immediately we again have a personality that seems real, with OUR body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts, and sense consciousness.

Through Avijja we now believe that we actually exist as a fixed persona which is now subjected to all the effects of Dukkha.

When our Khamma is not strong enough to evict Avijja and reinstate the Dhamma then we are in peril: Through Avijja we listen to our thoughts not realising that they are actually Kilesas intent on causing harm.

In the West, a coroner would say that a person committed suicide when the balance of their mind was effected.

As a Bhuddist we could say: Dukkha occurred to such a subjective extent that Sati was momentarily lost, Dhamma was then usurped by Avijja as the controlling force, wrong view of Atta was therefore re-established, a wrong action then subsequently occurred.

Monks are Human.

May I say this with Metta to all.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with feelings such as hurt, disappointment, confusion etc, then that feeling is one of the five clinging Khandas, as are the subsequent thoughts that arise, as is the subsequent filing away of the rationalised conclusion in ones memory/perception: This entire process is that of wrong view: Avijja-Atta-The 5 Khandas.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with Dhamma, then one sees that there is a Dhamma lesson to be reaffirmed. Our enemy is Avijja and the Kilesas which are demons of defilement, and must be absolutely eradicated.

Through Sati we guard our sense doors against them. Through Samadhi we suppress them if they slip past the gatekeeper. Through Vipissana we eradicate their very existence.

May all beings be safe from harm both internal and external. May all beings find refuge in the Triple Gem. May all beings having found the Dhamma due to their good Khamma, awake to the way of Dhammas and attain Nibbana.

[thepea]

Monks are Human.

The Human realm is one of the 31 realms of Samsara.

Humans generally have a predisposed wrong view of self.

Dhamma teaches us the right view: Anatta.

Anatta teaches us that there is no self, only 5 clinging Khandas.

The Khandas are controlled moment by moment by either a light (Dhamma) or dark (Avijja) force.

In each micro-moment only one can be in control, and things can change very quickly should one loses Sati during a perfect storm of Dukkha due to the rollercoaster of life events.

If we lose Sati, we lose Dhamma, and Avijja gains control.

When Avijja is in the drivers seat, then we start believing again in a self (Atta) and that we are actually that self.

Then again through Avijja the demons that are Kilesas have control of the Khandas and immediately we again have a personality that seems real, with OUR body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts, and sense consciousness.

Through Avijja we now believe that we actually exist as a fixed persona which is now subjected to all the effects of Dukkha.

When our Khamma is not strong enough to evict Avijja and reinstate the Dhamma then we are in peril: Through Avijja we listen to our thoughts not realising that they are actually Kilesas intent on causing harm.

In the West, a coroner would say that a person committed suicide when the balance of their mind was effected.

As a Bhuddist we could say: Dukkha occurred to such a subjective extent that Sati was momentarily lost, Dhamma was then usurped by Avijja as the controlling force, wrong view of Atta was therefore re-established, a wrong action then subsequently occurred.

Monks are Human.

May I say this with Metta to all.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with feelings such as hurt, disappointment, confusion etc, then that feeling is one of the five clinging Khandas, as are the subsequent thoughts that arise, as is the subsequent filing away of the rationalised conclusion in ones memory/perception: This entire process is that of wrong view: Avijja-Atta-The 5 Khandas.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with Dhamma, then one sees that there is a Dhamma lesson to be reaffirmed. Our enemy is Avijja and the Kilesas which are demons of defilement, and must be absolutely eradicated.

Through Sati we guard our sense doors against them. Through Samadhi we suppress them if they slip past the gatekeeper. Through Vipissana we eradicate their very existence.

May all beings be safe from harm both internal and external. May all beings find refuge in the Triple Gem. May all beings having found the Dhamma due to their good Khamma, awake to the way of Dhammas and attain Nibbana.

My point is that dhamma when put into practice works quickly, a monk with decades of seclusion and time for practice should have easily worked through the dark kamma leading to birth in the lower fields.
Therefore said monk was practicing incorrectly or had stopped practicing for one reason or another.
In this case monks should be monitored for progress until a teacher has no need for concern, said monk is safe from rebirth in lower states.

[MettaDevPrac]

My point is that dhamma when put into practice works quickly, a monk with decades of seclusion and time for practice should have easily worked through the dark kamma leading to birth in the lower fields.
Therefore said monk was practicing incorrectly or had stopped practicing for one reason or another.
In this case monks should be monitored for progress until a teacher has no need for concern, said monk is safe from rebirth in lower states.

Your view seems to have been thoroughly stated. Thank you, it was interesting reading.

Metta to all. May all be diligent, generous in thought, speech and body, giving attention and effort to their responsibilities, and let go of what is not theirs. May all move forward on the Path which leads towards liberation from suffering.

For those interested, a recent Dhamma talk by Ajahn Brahmali on Dealing with Grief, Depression and Despair

[Talisman25]

Monks are Human.

The Human realm is one of the 31 realms of Samsara.

Humans generally have a predisposed wrong view of self.

Dhamma teaches us the right view: Anatta.

Anatta teaches us that there is no self, only 5 clinging Khandas.

The Khandas are controlled moment by moment by either a light (Dhamma) or dark (Avijja) force.

In each micro-moment only one can be in control, and things can change very quickly should one loses Sati during a perfect storm of Dukkha due to the rollercoaster of life events.

If we lose Sati, we lose Dhamma, and Avijja gains control.

When Avijja is in the drivers seat, then we start believing again in a self (Atta) and that we are actually that self.

Then again through Avijja the demons that are Kilesas have control of the Khandas and immediately we again have a personality that seems real, with OUR body, feelings, perceptions, thoughts, and sense consciousness.

Through Avijja we now believe that we actually exist as a fixed persona which is now subjected to all the effects of Dukkha.

When our Khamma is not strong enough to evict Avijja and reinstate the Dhamma then we are in peril: Through Avijja we listen to our thoughts not realising that they are actually Kilesas intent on causing harm.

In the West, a coroner would say that a person committed suicide when the balance of their mind was effected.

As a Bhuddist we could say: Dukkha occurred to such a subjective extent that Sati was momentarily lost, Dhamma was then usurped by Avijja as the controlling force, wrong view of Atta was therefore re-established, a wrong action then subsequently occurred.

Monks are Human.

May I say this with Metta to all.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with feelings such as hurt, disappointment, confusion etc, then that feeling is one of the five clinging Khandas, as are the subsequent thoughts that arise, as is the subsequent filing away of the rationalised conclusion in ones memory/perception: This entire process is that of wrong view: Avijja-Atta-The 5 Khandas.

If one considers the suicide of a monk with Dhamma, then one sees that there is a Dhamma lesson to be reaffirmed. Our enemy is Avijja and the Kilesas which are demons of defilement, and must be absolutely eradicated.

Through Sati we guard our sense doors against them. Through Samadhi we suppress them if they slip past the gatekeeper. Through Vipissana we eradicate their very existence.

May all beings be safe from harm both internal and external. May all beings find refuge in the Triple Gem. May all beings having found the Dhamma due to their good Khamma, awake to the way of Dhammas and attain Nibbana.

My point is that dhamma when put into practice works quickly, a monk with decades of seclusion and time for practice should have easily worked through the dark kamma leading to birth in the lower fields.
Therefore said monk was practicing incorrectly or had stopped practicing for one reason or another.
In this case monks should be monitored for progress until a teacher has no need for concern, said monk is safe from rebirth in lower states.

I would say this:

The late Ajahn in question was not your stereotypical mendicant and recluse. There is a very pragmatic reason that in the Thai Forrest tradition, once a Bikkhu has found and been accepted by a master, that perhaps at least 5-6 years will have passed before that Dutong monk would be allowed to go alone into Forrest seclusion.

We simply do not know if that process occurred. It is possible that a decision was made to leave the Sangha without disrobing and go freestyle. I have actually known that to happen.

At that point there are no checks in that other Bikkhus may point out that wrong views are present, perhaps also wrong actions. These matters can escalate and if we start listening to the Kilesas believing their opinions and guidance, and we then start acting upon them, we are in trouble. In even a small Sangha this would not have gone unoticed and unchecked. That situation would be bad enough in an isolated hermitage, is it not the case that trying to maintain that lifestyle in a European city is going to put such a Bhikkhu under even more pressure. When inevitably dukkha occurs it is entirely probable that the Kilesas are in the driving seat and that’s trouble.

Some people thrive on solitude indefinitely. Many do not and pay a heavy price. I doubt very much if it would have occurred if there was not such isolation from spiritual friends in a Sangha.

Perhaps the salient point here is the absolute peril of allowing the Kilesas to have free reign. With respect, I think that the pure Citta where Dhamma is found is all to easily displaced by the defiled Citta of the Kilesas, dependant upon our progress along the path and our individual khamma.

[thepea]

It seems like much of this could be avoided if monastics were taken under the wing of a senior established monk and periods of reporting were required. Also stricter rules regarding technology, manditory periods of strict practice where noble silence is observed including computer communication.

[cappuccino]

It seems like much of this could be avoided if

So what if someone was suicidal

You still have to fear hell