What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

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binocular
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:45 pmIf a non-returner is destined to nibbana without ever returning to the human world, then why not all beings in the higher realms (or gods or whatever) are not all destined to nibbana without ever returning to the human realm?
If I got that correctly, there are several reasons for rebirth in heaven, some have nothing to do with attainment on the Path.
what is it that makes the case of the non-returner so unique that he does not have to return to the human realm while other deities can go to lower realms?
Presumably because they got to heaven because of their good deeds or some such, and not because of spiritual attainment on the Path.
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cappuccino
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

you don't return to sensuality realms if you're beyond sensuality desire
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

If you go to heaven who is going to teach you Dhamma?
Are there monks in heaven?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

use your time wisely, here


heaven is not the best, too pleasurable


you might just enjoy yourself, forget the practice, etc
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by DNS »

binocular wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:00 pm
DNS wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:16 pmDevas or humans can realize nibbana.
Could someone please do a nice infographic or chart depicting all the possible permutations, so that we can reference it with ease? (Or maybe it already exists?)

if human attains stream entry --> rebirth in ... or ...

if human attains once-return --> rebirth in ... or ...

if deva attains ... --> rebirth in ... or ...
I have created something like that:
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/31_planes_of_existence

In the right column it shows what causes rebirth there, which proficiency in jhana, etc.

It's based on Suttas and Jootla's BPS article, seen in references, i.e., not something I created in terms of content, just the layout.
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by binocular »

Thank you! :twothumbsup:
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

except human life can be up to 80 thousand years
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by Bundokji »

binocular wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:05 pm Presumably because they got to heaven because of their good deeds or some such, and not because of spiritual attainment on the Path.
And yet, both are in heaven. It is their action in heaven that should determine their next destination, is it not? If it is their previous Kamma, then why not a straightforward ticket to nibbana for non-returners?

And it seems going to the higher realms is not that advantageous to the non-returner according to what Dr. David shared. Spending thousands of years or aeons in suffering (due to its impermanent nature) means that the non-returner will be stuck in the viscous cycle for much longer.

Be careful guys. Try to aim for stream entry, and if you attain it, please stop practicing so you improve your chances to be reborn as a human and end suffering much faster than a non-returner. :toast:
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

Be careful guys. Try to aim for stream entry, and if you attain it, please stop practicing so you improve your chances to be reborn as a human and end suffering much faster than a non-returner. :toast:
Buddha said there are four types of people.

- Happy and attain Nibbana
-Unhappy and attain Nibbana

It seems you are in the second category.
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Buddha said there are four types of people.

- Happy and attain Nibbana
- Unhappy and attain Nibbana
quote from source?
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by binocular »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:37 pmAnd yet, both are in heaven. It is their action in heaven that should determine their next destination, is it not? If it is their previous Kamma, then why not a straightforward ticket to nibbana for non-returners?

And it seems going to the higher realms is not that advantageous to the non-returner according to what Dr. David shared. Spending thousands of years or aeons in suffering (due to its impermanent nature) means that the non-returner will be stuck in the viscous cycle for much longer.
Well, it could be that things should be made easy, but not too easy.
:tongue:
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by Ontheway »

Being a Deva is possible to attain Nibbana too, in fact, Buddha urged his followers strive hard to at least attain Anagami sainthood. When they reborn to Suddhavasa heaven in subsequent life, from there they will attain Parinibbana.

Dhammapada:

Verse 236
So karohi dīpamattano, khippaṃ vāyama paṇḍito bhava.
niddhantamalo anaṅgaṇo, dibbaṃ ariyabhūmiṃ upehisi.

Make an island for yourself. Strive hard and become wise. Rid of impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall enter the celestial abode of the Noble Ones.
https://suttacentral.net/dhp235-255/en/buddharakkhita
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by may.all.bliss »

I personally think animals have their own kind of enlightenment and happiness, maybe even cessation because of lack of defilements, they can sit still for long without thinking. Have other teachers say it as well.

Because animals are at least free from:
Hatred and delusion.

They may become greedy/lustful when they are hungry that is true, but often they are not, and perhaps they are never at all, because it's not a mental state for them of thinking.
“When lust, hate, and delusion are abandoned, a man does not choose for his own affliction or
for others’ affliction or for the affliction of both. In that way there comes to be Nibbāna here and
now, without delay, inviting inspection, onward-leading, and experienceable by the wise.
Why did the Buddha say it's a lower realm? well maybe because they can't consciously choose to transcend, are at the whim of their circumstances.
Or because it is a metaphor for the lower human state of craving without conscious wisdom,
but I am not sure if he said that that means they aren't enlightened.

Anyway, they often show great peace and happiness in my view, often no craving, just being.
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by TRobinson465 »

SarathW wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:08 pm If you go to heaven who is going to teach you Dhamma?
Are there monks in heaven?
The Buddha went to tavatimsa heaven to teach his birth mother who was then a deva. His mother became a sotapanna.

There probably aren't monks in heaven but who knows. but they don't need monks anyways because they can just go to earth to listen to the dhamma and practice in their own realm. I believe the texts state that one of the Buddha's daily routines was to teach devas who would come learn from him at midnight. Devas who learned the dhamma as humans can also just practice what they learned as humans as devas remember thier prior existence.

It is possible for devas to attain nibbana, just more difficult than humans cuz of the lots of shiny distractions.
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Re: What is the reason that only a human can attain Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:08 pm If you go to heaven who is going to teach you Dhamma?
Are there monks in heaven?
The Buddha went to tavatimsa heaven to teach his birth mother who was then a deva. His mother became a sotapanna.

There probably aren't monks in heaven but who knows. but they don't need monks anyways because they can just go to earth to listen to the dhamma and practice in their own realm. I believe the texts state that one of the Buddha's daily routines was to teach devas who would come learn from him at midnight. Devas who learned the dhamma as humans can also just practice what they learned as humans as devas remember thier prior existence.

It is possible for devas to attain nibbana, just more difficult than humans cuz of the lots of shiny distractions.
Good point.
It appears that you should have a balanced life with happiness and suffering to learn Dhamma.
Woeful states got too much suffering and the Deva realm got too much enjoyment.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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