Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

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dpcalder
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Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by dpcalder »

One of my main concerns regarding the difference between Vipassana and Samadhi has to do with whether these represent totally different kinds of meditations, or if they are just different stages that occur during the practice of Anapanasati. Do they constitute totally don't procedures and kinds of meditations, such as the difference (For example) between Zazen and Transcendental Meditation and other stuff, or are they just components of stages that you naturally pass through during Anapanasati?
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cappuccino
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by cappuccino »

insight & calmness (& focus)

calmness helps insight, one can't be "upset" & see clearly
SarathW
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by SarathW »

Vipassana is Sati as in Satipathana.
Samadhi is the result of practicing Satipathana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Vipassanā is a floodlight and samādhi is a laser
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
thepea
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by thepea »

The object of samadhi is the difference between insight arising.
char101
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by char101 »

Vipassana is a subset of samadhi. If it is vipassana, it is samadhi, but if it samadhi, it isn't always vipassana. Samadhi that is not vipassana is those which goal is jhana. Vipassana depends on a type of samadhi which is called khanika-samadhi or momentary concentration, and with that concentration, one tries to perceive the true nature of the body and mind.

The goal of vipassana is to attain wisdom (panna). Panna always requires concentration (samadhi).

Anapanasati is normally a serenity (samatha) first path, i.e. one first try to attain jhana and then develop panna afterwards using the jhana as foundation. But recent practice of anapansati is also practiced as vipassana, e.g. when one use the up and down movement of the stomach as mindfulness object.
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by chownah »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:29 pm One of my main concerns regarding the difference between Vipassana and Samadhi has to do with whether these represent totally different kinds of meditations, or if they are just different stages that occur during the practice of Anapanasati. Do they constitute totally don't procedures and kinds of meditations, such as the difference (For example) between Zazen and Transcendental Meditation and other stuff, or are they just components of stages that you naturally pass through during Anapanasati?
Maybe reading Wings to Awakening would help:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... /wings.pdf
It doesn't use the words vipassana and samadhi but I think that mostly he uses insight for vipassana and concentration for samadhi.

An example of one way to view them is in the account of the buddha's enlighenment. First he attained fourth jhana which is strong concentration (samadhi) and then he had insight (vipassana) into paragraph after paragraph of stuff like rebirth etc. So....for insight to arise requires a concentrated mind (for vipassana one needs to first attain a degree of samadhi).
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DooDoot
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by DooDoot »

Vipassana and Samadhi are just different stages that occur during the practice of Anapanasati. They are just components of stages that you naturally pass through during Anapanasati.

For example, when your mind is continuously observant of the in & breathing in a non-distracted manner, this is samadhi.

Then if & when your mind (due to increasing clarity) sees clearly the impermanent & selfless nature of each in & out breath, this is vipassana.

Or if your mind (due to increasing clarity) sees clearly the cause & effect relationships between the mind, breathing & body (for example, you see clearly a concentrated mind causes calm breathing which in turn causes a calm body & mind), this is also vipassana.

"Samadhi" means "collectnessness", "concentration" or "distraction".

"Vipassana" means "clear seeing" (of higher truth about suffering & suffering's cessation and ultimate reality).

:smile:
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santa100
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by santa100 »

dpcalder wrote:Do they constitute totally don't procedures and kinds of meditations, such as the difference (For example) between Zazen and Transcendental Meditation and other stuff, or are they just components of stages that you naturally pass through during Anapanasati?
They're components that are both included within Anapanasati. Samadhi's function is to settle and to focus, without which, one won't be able to 'see clearly'(Vipassana). An analogy, a shaky or vibrating water tank won't allow one to see through everything, neither inside the tank nor thru the opposite side of the tank. So first the tank needs to be 'settled', to sit perfectly still(Samadhi). Once all the mud and stuff inside have been completely settled, then one can begin to 'see thru'(Vipassana) everything, both inside the tank and on the opposite side of the tank. Other similar analogies like a shaky burning candle won't be able provide the sharpest brightest light until it sits perfectly still on top of a flat solid surface, etc..
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Re: Vipassana vs Samadhi? Confusion regarding difference

Post by ToVincent »

dpcalder wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:29 pm One of my main concerns regarding the difference between Vipassana and Samadhi has to do with whether these represent totally different kinds of meditations, or if they are just different stages...
They are stages.

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VIPASSANA:
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There might be some word play between Vipassana [pp.of vippasīdati]
Pasīdati [pa+sad]
- reconciled or pleased; to be clear & calm, to become of peaceful citta.
प्रसद् prasad [pra-sad] [ pra-√ sad ]
- to become clear or distinct KaṭhUp.
- to settle down , grow clear and bright , become placid or tranquil MBh.
प्र pra
- forth
√ सद् sad - (pp. सन्न sanna)
सन्न sanna
- sit in or at RV. AV. VS. ŚBr.
- to sit down before , watch RV. AitBr.
- set down VS. ŚBr. ŚrS.
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
As Noun:
सद् sad
- sitting or dwelling in. AV.
¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
प्रसन्न prasanna [pra-sanna] m. f. n.
- appeased, serene ŚBR.


-------

And Vipassana as:
[विपश्यन vipaśyana [act. vipaś]
- accurate knowledge, correct discernment of reality.

विपश् vipaś [vi-paś]
- observe, distinguish.

√ पश् paś [linked to dṛś]
- sight or eye. RV.
- to live to see , experience , partake of, undergo , incur. Mn. MBh.
- to be a spectator. Mn.
- behold , look at , observe , perceive , notice. RV.
- to see with the spiritual eye. RV., Br., ŚāṅkhŚr.
- to learn , find out. Mn. MBh.
- to have insight or discernment. Mn. MBh.
- to consider , think over , examine. Mn. MBh.
- to foresee. Mn. MBh.]
The Chinese equivalent in the sutras is 觀 - (however, it encompasses a larger meaning - for 觀 might also be for instance, the contemplation of lust, anger and harmful thoughts; which has little to do with vipassana).


One great Nikaya's text that has no parallel for that particular issue (of vipassana,) is AN 7.3:
The power of faith, the power of energy,
the powers of moral shame and moral dread;
the powers of sati and samādhi,
and discernment (pañña), the seventh power;
a powerful bhikkhu possessing these
is wise and lives happily - (there is a parallel up to this strophe; but not below).

He should discriminate the dhamma (phenomena) from the origin.
and have an accurate knowledge, wherever there is discernment. /
The liberation from his ceto,
is like the extinguishing of a lamp.


“saddhābalaṃ vīriyañca, hirī ottappiyaṃ balaṃ.
satibalaṃ samādhi ca,
paññā ve sattamaṃ balaṃ.
etehi balavā bhikkhu,
sukhaṃ jīvati paṇḍito.

yoniso vicine dhammaṃ,
paññāyatthaṃ vipassati.
pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ,
vimokkho hoti cetaso”ti.

AN. 7.3 (also 7.4)

The last stanza is the most interesting.
Particularly "vicine". Because it is from this "vicine," that the meaning of vipassana/vipaśyana as: "accurate knowledge, or correct discernment (pañña) of reality", takes all its significance.

First, yoniso:
-------------------
The origin (yoniso) is the Nāmarūpa nidāna, with its khandhas.
See here: https://justpaste.it/1n1ii

Secondly, "vicine":
---------------------------
From vicināti ( vi+ cināti) = discriminate.
Cināti,[Sk.cinoti & cayati, ci, to which also kāya.(PTS)
cināti:[ci + nā]: heaps up
Sk. √ चि ci pr. (cinoti) pr. r. (cinute) pft. (cikāya) pp. (cita)
1. √ चि ci
- to arrange in order , heap up , pile up , construct (a sacrificial altar) AV. VS. TS. Kāṭh. ŚBr.
- to wish to pile up ŚBr. KātyŚr.
________________

2. √ चि ci
- to observe , perceive RV. Kāṭh.
- to fix the gaze upon , be intent upon RV. TS.
- to seek for RV.
- to seek for , investigate , search through , make inquiries MBh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Vicinati [vi+cināti]
- to investigate, examine, discriminate.

विचि vici [vi-ci]
- to segregate , select , pick out , cull TS. ŚBr. MBh.
- to divide , part (hair) VS.
- to take away , remove , disperse RV. KātyŚr.
- to clear , prepare (a road) RV.
- to distribute ib.
- to gather , collect ib.
- to pile or heap up in a wrong way , disarrange ŚBr.

___________________

काय kāya [act. √ चि ci]
Here kāya has both the meaning of a human body (as a heap of primary elements); but also a human body that observes and seeks.


Vicine is therefore the investigation of:
1. The two parted phenomenas, as shown on arrow 1 & 2 in https://justpaste.it/1n1ii - That is to say, (1) the "making" of the external ayatanani (that will become the "mine" - and (2) the "making" of the internal ayatanani (that will become the "I").
2. The "sankarizing" itself of the khandhas in the Nāmarūpa nidāna, that leads to these two major phenomena.


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SAMĀDHI
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Samādhi = establishment - as in "bringing about", "affirming", "confirming" ([back] the "unpolluted citta").
Pali:
Samādhi
[fr.saṁ+ā+dhā]

Samādahi:[aor.of samādahati]
Samādahati = [saṃ + ā + dhā + a]
ādahati = [ā-dhā] or [ā-dah]
dah = to establish, to place.

---------

Sanskrit:
समाधि samādhi [act. samādhā]
saṃ + ā + dhā

सम् sam connected with [sam]
- always the same, constant, unchanged (RV.)
- having the right measure, regular, normal, right, straight (AitBr.)
- right measure or proportion (ŚBr.)

आ ā
- towards (RV.)

धा √ dhā
- to direct or fix the attention upon (RV.)
- to seize , take hold of , hold (RV. AV.)
- establish (RV. ŚBr.)


The ultimate goal of Samādhi is to establish a "normal" citta. A "constant" citta with "right measure".
A citta that is liberated from the "polluted" ceto.

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CETO
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The liberation from his ceto,
is like the extinguishing of a lamp.
pajjotasseva nibbānaṃ,
vimokkho hoti cetaso”ti.


Here we have (again) to turn to the Chinese texts to hone the meaning and characteristics of ceto.

Ceto is usually written as 心得.

Where 心 is the citta.
And where 得 means: Acquisition, 'possession.' A term describing the reception of defilements and karma by the continuing body of sentient beings.

For instance, 心得 is found in SA 263 (SN 22. 101 - AN 7.71 - perfect parallels).
Or SN 22.5/SA 60, etc.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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