Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

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Lost1984
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Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Lost1984 »

Always had trouble with any and all suttas relating to "Form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness" not being 'self'.

From my current understanding, it seems to mean that you cannot 'possess' yourself. Which means that most things that happen to you (internally and externally through your senses) are basically automatic, fleeting, unsatisfying and never-ending.

...had found a video clip from a movie I loved that pretty much sums this up. (Quote starts at 5:00)



Thoughts?
Swami Bananananda
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Swami Bananananda »

From the institutionalized perspective, there isn’t an “I” or “me” to be found in any of the 5 aggregates, therefore you can’t say any of the 5 aggregates is really you.

If you can deconstruct the “I” or “me” that’s navigating you through the world, that makes decisions, has beliefs, and feels things, then that’s it. The “I” or “me” is just a thought. There’s no reality to it.
Lost1984
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Lost1984 »

Oh, and just in case the YouTube video ever disappears, the quote is from the film "Circle of Iron" and another title for it is, "The Silent Flute".

The quote being; "Each moment that passes changes you. You do not, cannot possess even yourself. How can you hope to possess anyone or anything else?

:meditate:
Buckwheat
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Buckwheat »

Lost1984 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:46 am Which means that most things that happen to you (internally and externally through your senses) are basically automatic, fleeting, unsatisfying and never-ending.
Neither automatic nor never ending. But you nailed it on fleeting and unsatisfying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impermanence
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_m ... _existence
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Bundokji
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Bundokji »

Lost1984 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:46 am From my current understanding, it seems to mean that you cannot 'possess' yourself. Which means that most things that happen to you (internally and externally through your senses) are basically automatic, fleeting, unsatisfying and never-ending.
Not self can also mean: the self is dependent on associating name with form and ignorance of any other possible way of seeing things.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Lost1984
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Lost1984 »

Buckwheat wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:46 am
Lost1984 wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:46 am Which means that most things that happen to you (internally and externally through your senses) are basically automatic, fleeting, unsatisfying and never-ending.
Neither automatic nor never ending. But you nailed it on fleeting and unsatisfying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratītyasamutpāda
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impermanence
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_m ... _existence
Hmmm. Ok.

The words "automatic" and "never-ending" are also synonyms for "constant". Bunches more out there.

Here is the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta with the word "constant" as relating to one of many "Not-self" suttas.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:|

What was meant was, "All is 'constantly, inconstant'."
:mrgreen:

:meditate:
char101
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by char101 »

Realizing anatta is probably like a character in a Lego world realizing that everything is made of Lego blocks. Everything is actually made of the same thing and lack own identity, including itself. Plane, house, person, animal, these are just names for different shape of blocks. The five aggregates are the Lego blocks in the real world.
auto
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by auto »

Lost1984 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:58 am Oh, and just in case the YouTube video ever disappears, the quote is from the film "Circle of Iron" and another title for it is, "The Silent Flute".

The quote being; "Each moment that passes changes you. You do not, cannot possess even yourself. How can you hope to possess anyone or anything else?

:meditate:
well the author apparently not an engineer.

if you can predict the changes, order can be achieved. That's how.
Lost1984
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Lost1984 »

auto wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:38 pm
Lost1984 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:58 am Oh, and just in case the YouTube video ever disappears, the quote is from the film "Circle of Iron" and another title for it is, "The Silent Flute".

The quote being; "Each moment that passes changes you. You do not, cannot possess even yourself. How can you hope to possess anyone or anything else?

:meditate:
well the author apparently not an engineer.

if you can predict the changes, order can be achieved. That's how.
Ok, well...

There is no cents in making any since, sense it all makes no since at all.

:juggling:
auto
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by auto »

Lost1984 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:51 pm
auto wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:38 pm
Lost1984 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:58 am Oh, and just in case the YouTube video ever disappears, the quote is from the film "Circle of Iron" and another title for it is, "The Silent Flute".

The quote being; "Each moment that passes changes you. You do not, cannot possess even yourself. How can you hope to possess anyone or anything else?

:meditate:
well the author apparently not an engineer.

if you can predict the changes, order can be achieved. That's how.
Ok, well...

There is no cents in making any since, sense it all makes no since at all.

:juggling:
"Each moment that passes changes you" what is the basis for that claim?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism#Skeptical_hypotheses wrote:Skepticism, as an epistemological argument, poses the question of whether knowledge, in the first place, is possible.
a skeptic doesn't need evidence for these kinds of claims and doesn't even believe there is any certainty possible.

Example of certainty is :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum wrote:In 1641, Descartes published (in Latin) Meditations on first philosophy in which he referred to the proposition, though not explicitly as "cogito, ergo sum" in Meditation II:
(Latin:) hoc pronuntiatum: ego sum, ego existo,[e] quoties a me profertur, vel mente concipitur, necessario esse verum.[j]

(English:) this proposition: I am thinking, therefore I am/exist,[e] whenever it is uttered from me, or conceived by the mind, necessarily is true.[k]
Lost1984
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by Lost1984 »

auto wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:43 pm
Lost1984 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:51 pm
auto wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:38 pm
well the author apparently not an engineer.

if you can predict the changes, order can be achieved. That's how.
Ok, well...

There is no cents in making any since, sense it all makes no since at all.

:juggling:
"Each moment that passes changes you" what is the basis for that claim?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism#Skeptical_hypotheses wrote:Skepticism, as an epistemological argument, poses the question of whether knowledge, in the first place, is possible.
a skeptic doesn't need evidence for these kinds of claims and doesn't even believe there is any certainty possible.

Example of certainty is :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum wrote:In 1641, Descartes published (in Latin) Meditations on first philosophy in which he referred to the proposition, though not explicitly as "cogito, ergo sum" in Meditation II:
(Latin:) hoc pronuntiatum: ego sum, ego existo,[e] quoties a me profertur, vel mente concipitur, necessario esse verum.[j]

(English:) this proposition: I am thinking, therefore I am/exist,[e] whenever it is uttered from me, or conceived by the mind, necessarily is true.[k]
Interesting. Thanks.

'I am' pretty sure that I am dying, though...
So, I will leave you (with) 'bits and pieces.'

:meditate: :meditate: :meditate:

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

:meditate: :meditate: :meditate:

"And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."

Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton with some flesh and blood attached to it, held together by the tendons...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton blood-besmeared and without flesh, held together by the tendons...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton without flesh and blood, held together by the tendons...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to disconnected bones, scattered in all directions_here a bone of the hand, there a bone of the foot, a shin bone, a thigh bone, the pelvis, spine and skull...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bleached bones of conchlike color...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground reduced to bones, more than a year-old, lying in a heap...

And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nysa.html

:meditate: :meditate: :meditate:
auto
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by auto »

Lost1984 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:58 pm "Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."
hmm,
From there comes out the reason why there is "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body..." the grass, twigs etc are the body, and the elements of earth, water, fire .. are body in the body.
Other words, these bodies(not self) will cause realities/elements/dhatus to arise and these realities belong to the self. As the thought you are dying is personal reality.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html wrote:And further, monks, a monk knows, when he is going, "I am going"; he knows, when he is standing, "I am standing"; he knows, when he is sitting, "I am sitting"; he knows, when he is lying down, "I am lying down"; or just as his body is disposed so he knows it.
it is for to get knowledge and practice mindfulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html wrote:Or his mindfulness is established with the thought:"The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body.
mindfulness and knowledge is needed for to contemplate dhatus.
Lost1984 wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:58 pm 'I am' pretty sure that I am dying, though...
So, I will leave you (with) 'bits and pieces.'
the grass, trees, stones etc exists as long you are mindful of them, thinking further than that like they also exists when I am not mindful of them, exceeds the range what is possible to know.

you have seen dead bodies lying on the ground, birds turn into food of the maggots. But you are not these things, you can't just assume you die, it is speculation. The thought "I am" dying is dhatu, your personal element aroused by seeing dead bodies.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Not-Self Alternate Meaning and/or Translation

Post by salayatananirodha »

my understanding of this term is essence-less or without essence
phenomena arising from conditions are unstable, unable to satisfy and without essence
not even a moment of solidity or realness
it's kind of like scooping water from out of the ocean and dumping it back into the ocean; it is pointless and tiring
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
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