Old age, sickness and death

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
zink53
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:06 pm

Old age, sickness and death

Post by zink53 »

If old age, sickness and death arise within the container of the body, is it worth holding on to the body as 'I' or 'mine'?
form
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by form »

No. But it is easier to progress if body is kept in good conditions for as long as possible.
JohnK
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by JohnK »

And mindfulness of the body is one of the four satipatthanas (foundations of mindfulness), so it is very handy!
It is also necessary for good posture. :)

Edited to suggest that it is not ONLY because of old age, sickness, and death that the body should not be clung to.
Per dependent origination, clinging itself leads to old age, sickness, and death; the entire mass of suffering.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Buckwheat
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:39 am
Location: California USA

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Buckwheat »

One can see taking care of the body as an act of generosity for any future becoming that will inhabit that form, just as one would help a dear friend.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Chant ... _toc_id_10
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Zom »

Death in Microcosmos 8-)

User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 9880
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Ceisiwr »

zink53 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:29 pm If old age, sickness and death arise within the container of the body, is it worth holding on to the body as 'I' or 'mine'?
No, there isn’t any point.

For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature...

Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5152
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by cappuccino »

zink53 wrote: If old age, sickness and death arise within the container of the body, is it worth holding on to the body as 'I' or 'mine'?
You may be missing the point


One should be aware of old age, sickness, death


One shouldn't try to forget about it
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 7428
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Sam Vara »

Zom wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 9:49 pm Death in Microcosmos 8-)

Truly, this world is a shitshow all the way down...
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5152
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Truly, this world is a shitshow all the way down...
yet… gratitude would reveal another perspective
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 17932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by mikenz66 »

A recent by Akāliko Bhikkhu: Samvega and Spiritual Urgency


In the live discussion (not recorded, unfortunately) he led a guided meditation based on AN5.57
https://suttacentral.net/an5.57
“Mendicants, a woman or a man, a layperson or a renunciate should often review these five subjects. What five?
‘I am liable to grow old, I am not exempt from old age.’ A woman or a man, a layperson or a renunciate should often review this.
‘I am liable to get sick, I am not exempt from sickness.’ …
‘I am liable to die, I am not exempt from death.’ …
‘I must be parted and separated from all I hold dear and beloved.’ …
‘I am the owner of my deeds and heir to my deeds. Deeds are my womb, my relative, and my refuge.
I shall be the heir of whatever deeds I do, whether good or bad.’ A woman or a man, a layperson or a renunciate should often review this.
:heart:
Mike
justindesilva
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by justindesilva »

zink53 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:29 pm If old age, sickness and death arise within the container of the body, is it worth holding on to the body as 'I' or 'mine'?
Bhava paccays jati , jati paccays Jara marana where Jara marana is the old age and death.
Bhava is existence conditioned by upadana or clinging to Tanha or desires. Hence old age and death is the result of Panca upadanaskanda. Clinging to pancaskanda.
Me, mine or myself is an illusion of self as described in Anatta lakkana sutta. Rupa, vedana, sangna, Sankara, vingnana are the pancaskanda where each is not me , myself or mine.
Hence old age and death is part of the psycho physico process where we do not realise that it is a sub process of a cosmic flux, where everything is anitya or an ever changing process. Only samma ditthi ( yathabuta dassana) can direct one in to the vision of anitya and dukka which is old age and death.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2609
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Zom »

That's interesting:

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 3095
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by Bundokji »

As a purely theoretical question, the answer is no. But within this theoretical question, the underlying value is that of love and attachment to the body. Unless sickness, aging and death are of value, then why to present them as a motivation for letting go of identifying with them?

What seems to be endless is presenting a self then either to confirm it or to deny it. Aging, sickness and death become one of endless approaches for this futile endeavor.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 10:19 pmTruly, this world is a shitshow all the way down...
Your new streak of ultra-niceness didn't live long ... Talk about impermanence, old age, sickness, and death! :tongue:
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Old age, sickness and death

Post by binocular »

zink53 wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:29 pmIf old age, sickness and death arise within the container of the body, is it worth holding on to the body as 'I' or 'mine'?
Yes, because otherwise one would merely turn into a zombie instead of attaining the deathless.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Post Reply