Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭..
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. N. MN.22

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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confusedlayman
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by confusedlayman »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:06 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
:heart:
U can’t perceive unconsciousness while live but after u regain conciousness and r5eview the gap / memory loss
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:18 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:06 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
:heart:
U can’t perceive unconsciousness while live but after u regain conciousness and r5eview the gap / memory loss

Above

:heart: just means:
  • This quote has been Well Noted by me, with metta.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭..
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. N. MN.22

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Pondera
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Pondera »

“Consciousness” in the technical sense (mind consciousness; eye consciousness; ear consciousness; etcetera) - that all comes to an end when one reaches Unbinding. Knowledge and vision of release (or he or she who knows “the burden has been laid down. Birth is no more etcetera etcetera.”) implies a subject identical to the knowledge itself - but not a Self apart from the knowledge.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by SteRo »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
Not so. When consciousness has ceased there is no consciousness. Only after consciousness sets in again can there be a knowing 'consciousness was absent'.

After your downfall to eternalism this has been your second downfall. Such are the consequences of following the teachings of eternalist monks.

Nevermind. Some Mahayana schools have a lot of such eternalist teachings which nurture conceit which is compatible with their motivation since they want to avoid what they call 'the nirvana of a sravaka'.

So again ... these eternalist monks might actually be bodhisattvas.
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thepea
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by thepea »

SteRo wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:03 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
Not so. When consciousness has ceased there is no consciousness. Only after consciousness sets in again can there be a knowing 'consciousness was absent'.

After your downfall to eternalism this has been your second downfall. Such are the consequences of following the teachings of eternalist monks.

Nevermind. Some Mahayana schools have a lot of such eternalist teachings which nurture conceit which is compatible with their motivation since they want to avoid what they call 'the nirvana of a sravaka'.

So again ... these eternalist monks might actually be bodhisattvas.
You don’t seem to consider sub-conscious, which is chugging along whether the imaginary self is aware or not.
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Zom
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Zom »

What is stream of consciousness?
What is the Sutta reference whare it explain the stream of consciousness?
Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?
Naturally - no, as it is always fueled by ignorance, while ignorance is naturally fueled by all kind of defilements.
Bundokji
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:45 am Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?
It can, based on a certain view of what constitutes stream of consciousness, which is what society describes as "natural death".
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by SteRo »

thepea wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:24 pm
SteRo wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:03 am
cappuccino wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:57 pm consciousness is required in order to perceive absence of consciousness

hence consciousness is ever-present
Not so. When consciousness has ceased there is no consciousness. Only after consciousness sets in again can there be a knowing 'consciousness was absent'.

After your downfall to eternalism this has been your second downfall. Such are the consequences of following the teachings of eternalist monks.

Nevermind. Some Mahayana schools have a lot of such eternalist teachings which nurture conceit which is compatible with their motivation since they want to avoid what they call 'the nirvana of a sravaka'.

So again ... these eternalist monks might actually be bodhisattvas.
You don’t seem to consider sub-conscious, which is chugging along whether the imaginary self is aware or not.
There is no sub-conscious. There is impermanent jīvitindriya (vitality) which ends as life ends.
Theravada (major branch of Buddhism)
Jivitindriya in Theravada glossary... « previous · [J] · next »

One of the Sabbacittasadharana cetasikas. Jivitindriya is a mental life. it supports citta to stay alive and to be able to function well. It also supports other co arising cetasikas and all mental activities are supported by jivitindriya cetasika without which citta and cetasikas will never arise. It maintains mental life and it arises with each arising citta.
Source: Journey to Nibbana: Patthana Dhama

"life faculty"; Jivitam means "life", and indriya means "controlling faculty".;

1. This cetasika sustains the life of the citta and cetasikas it accompanies.

According to the Atthasalini the characteristic of jivitindriya is "ceaseless watching", its function is to maintain the life of the accompanying dhammas, its manifestation the establishment of them, and the proximate cause are the dhamas which have to be sustained.

2. The function of jivitindriya is to maintain the life of citta and its accompanying cetasikas. It keeps them going until they fall away.

Jivitindriya is One of the Seven Universals.

Atthasalini (part IV, Chapter I, 123, 124) (See also Dhammasangani19.)
Source: Dhamma Study: Cetasikas

Jīvitindriya (“vitality”); s. indriya, khandha (corporeality, mental formations), Tab. II.
Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/jivitindriya
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DooDoot
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:09 am There is no sub-conscious.
Anusaya
SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:09 amThere is impermanent jīvitindriya (vitality) which ends as life ends.
Jīvitindriya = biology. When consciousness ends in nirodha samapatti - jiva or ayu continues.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by SteRo »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:17 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:09 am There is no sub-conscious.
Anusaya
That no sub-conscious but a phenomenon that is other than consciousness.
DooDoot wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:17 am
SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:09 amThere is impermanent jīvitindriya (vitality) which ends as life ends.
Jīvitindriya = biology.
:roll:
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:23 amThat no sub-conscious but a phenomenon that is other than consciousness.
Its subconsciousness. Again about anusaya (underlying tendency):
For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him.

https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi
Nirvana is not merely ending surface thoughts because the underlying tendencies are deep. That is why the Buddha called enlightenment "uprooting". The underlying tendencies below the surface must be uprooted.
SteRo wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:23 am :roll:
Your replies continue to merely be your own philosophy rather than Theravada Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by Aloka »

SteRo wrote: He has given eternalist Mahayana style teachings in some of his writings.
Hi SteRo,

I am a loyal follower of Ajahn Sumedho and his teachings...and I'm also a former Vajrayana practitioner, so I'd be grateful if you could PM me URL links to these "eternalist Mahayana style teachings" you're refering to, because I don't want to disrupt this topic,thanks.

:anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, we've had these discussions before. Most recently here:
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:22 pm ...
This talk from Ajahn Sumedho is interesting:
Crazy cloud wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:22 pm Was listening to this talk today, and found it useful🙏
https://www.amaravati.org/audio/day-3a- ... awareness/
It may well be a useful approach in a meditative context, but his use of terminology seems very non-standard (which is not unusual for Thai Forest monks, of course), as he appears to be postulating a "consciousness" that is not impermanent.
...
The Thai Ajahns often specifically say that they are not following orthodox interpretation or language and base their interpretations on experience. Whether one agrees with them or not, it's useful to be aware of this.

Here's a post from a few years ago by Bhikkhu Dhammanando:
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:40 pm
Mkoll wrote:In your experience, is this concept of a primordial citta common in the Ajahn Mun and Chah forest traditions?
I think "common" would be a bit of an understatement. The primordial citta conception and similar strains of thinly disguised soul theory and semi-eternalism are ubiquitous in these traditions.
Mkoll wrote:Can you say say who is well-known from those traditions who espouse it and those who don't?
Among the Thai ajahns I don’t know of any who don’t teach this.

As for the non-Thai (i.e. mostly western) ajahns, with these you can predict it with a fairly high degree of accuracy from the monk’s biography. The non-eternalists for the most part comprise those who had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition. Examples would include Ajahns Khemadhammo, Tiradhammo and Sujāto, who all began as Mahasi practitioners; Ajahn Viradhammo, who began as a Ñāṇavīra enthusiast after Sāmaṇera Bodhesako introduced him to the man’s teachings; and Ajahn Brahmavamso, who began with the Samatha Trust, a British group that combines samatha meditation with Abhidhamma study. All of these appear to have avoided the semi-eternalist error that’s endemic to the Thai forest tradition. But those monks who had no previous background in Buddhism before they stumbled across the Thai forest tradition have for the most part not avoided it.
:heart:
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Re: Can stream of consciousness naturally come to an end?

Post by SteRo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:54 am Yes, we've had these discussions before. Most recently here:
...
Thanks for that. Since I do only have very rudimentary knowledge of the tradition it is helpful to learn that some of my observations seem to be shared by others.
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