Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

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SarathW
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Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

It appears both Ven. Thanissaro and Bhante Sujato have made a grave translation error in DN22.

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“Mendicants, the four kinds of mindfulness meditation are the path to convergence. They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment.
“Ekāyano ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.

https://suttacentral.net/dn22/en/sujato
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Ven. Vijithananda explain this in a diffrent way. "Attangamaya" menas not "make to and end of pain and sadness" but taking them as not i,me or mine.
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:19 am Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

It appears both Ven. Thanissaro and Bhante Sujato have made a grave translation error in DN22.

=========
“Mendicants, the four kinds of mindfulness meditation are the path to convergence. They are in order to purify sentient beings, to get past sorrow and crying, to make an end of pain and sadness, to end the cycle of suffering, and to realize extinguishment.
“Ekāyano ayaṃ, bhikkhave, maggo sattānaṃ visuddhiyā, sokaparidevānaṃ samatikkamāya dukkhadomanassānaṃ atthaṅgamāya ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya, yadidaṃ cattāro satipaṭṭhānā.

https://suttacentral.net/dn22/en/sujato
==================
Ven. Vijithananda explain this in a diffrent way. "Attangamaya" menas not "make to and end of pain and sadness" but taking them as not i,me or mine.
The Concise PED linked on SC gives
atthaṅgama
masculine
setting down.
and Warder for atthagamo gives "setting, extinction".

So it looks as if neither translation is too far off.
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Volo
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by Volo »

PED:
Attha2 (nt.) [Vedic asta, of uncertain etym.] home, primarily as place of rest & shelter, but in P. phraseology abstracted from the "going home", i. e. setting of the sun, as disappearance going out of existence, annihilation, extinction Only in acc. and as ˚ -- in foll phrases: atthangacchati to disappear, to go out of existence, to vanish Dh 226 (= vināsaŋ natthibhāvaŋ gacchati DhA iii.324), 384 ( parikkhayaŋ gacchati); pp. atthangata gone home, gone to rest, gone, disappeared; of the sun (= set): J i.175 (atthangate suriye at sunset); PvA 55 (id.) 216 (anatthangate s. before sunset) fig. Sn 472 (atthagata). 475 (id.) 1075 (= niruddha ucchinṇa vinaṭṭha anupādi -- sesāya nibbāna -- dhātuyā nibbuta); It 58; Dhs 1038; Vbh 195 -- atthagatatta (nt. abstr.) disappearance SnA 409. -- atthangama (atthagama passim) annihilation, disappearance opposed to samudaya (coming into existence) and synonymous with nirodha (destruction) D i.34, 37, 183; S iv.327; A iii.326; Ps ii.4, 6, 39; Pug 52; Dhs 165 265, 501, 579; Vbh 105. -- atthagamana (nt.) setting (of the sun) J i.101 (suriyass' atthagamanā at sunset DA i.95 (= ogamana). -- attha -- gāmin, in phrase udayɔ atthagāmin leading to birth and death (of paññā): see udaya. -- atthaŋ paleti = atthangacchati (fig.) Sn 1074 (= atthangameti nirujjhati Nd2 28). -- Also atthamita (pp. of i) set (of the sun) in phrase anatthamite suriye before sunset (with anatthangamite as v. l. at both pass. DhA i.86; iii.127. -- Cp. also abbhattha.
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by SarathW »

Venerable said that Thangama means tanking I,me and myself.
Anyway, we all know even Buddha experiences physical pain (Dukkha) but he did not take them I, me or myself.
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Volo
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by Volo »

SarathW wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:32 am Venerable said that Thangama means tanking I,me and myself.
Anyway, we all know even Buddha experiences physical pain (Dukkha) but he did not take them I, me or myself.
First, self would be atta, not attha. Second atthaṅgama literally means "going (gama) home (attha)" (or idiomatically "going to rest", and "disappearing" probably since sun disappears when it "goes home"), if we even accept that atthaṅgama should be corrected with attaṅgama, then it would mean something like "going to self", and in order to make it mean what that monk wants we would need to make something like anattaṅgama. I don't think his interpretation of this passage can be taken seriously.
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand Satipathana is applicable to Sotapanna etc as well.
Does this statement applicable to Sotapanna as well?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Volo
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation?

Post by Volo »

SarathW wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:16 am The way I understand Satipathana is applicable to Sotapanna etc as well.
Does this statement applicable to Sotapanna as well?
You've asked a question, and got some replies. You don't react in any way to what people say: whether you agree, disagree, understand them or not. Whether you have read the replies at all, I have no idea. But instead you ask another question... Why? Are we done with the OP question about translation of atthangama? I'm not used to this type of "discussion"...
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

You don't react in any way to what people say: whether you agree, disagree, understand them or not.
I am not going to take a position in what I don't know.
The only way you find the truth is only by experience.
However, at this stage, I am using my logic even though Buddha did not approve of it.
Having said that the translation does not appeal to my logic.
That is why I ask another question based on my logic.
If people can't ask questions, what is the use of having a forum?
Anyway, I appreciate your replies as I am going to forward them to venerable for his attention.
When I spoke to him he asked me "Yes, that is what all say, but what is your experience?"
I said to him "Yes I agree with you irrespective of the real meaning of the word"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

In other words if you take the Sutta overall, does the common translation make any sense?
Another question I have is, what it means by Dhukkha (Dukkha-Dukkha, Viparinama Dukkha, Sankhara Dukkha) in this case?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

General consensus is that the translations are correct.
However, if I look at the following usage I would say Ven. V's explanation also has some weight on it.
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"iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo..."
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... ranslation

=============
It sounds like what ever arising is subject to perishing.
This means whatever Dukka and Domanassa arise also subject to ending.
It is something like not taking Dukkha and Domassa as I, me or myself.
Whether you practice Satipathana or not, whatever Dukkha and Domnasa arose will perish naturally.
What Satipathana does is you become aware of this natural phenomenon of Samudaya and Vaya.
:shrug:
============
By the way please note all seven benefits of practicing Satipathana as per OP.
That is what really matters.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

"iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo..."
Why they use the word "Atthangamo" here instead of using " Vaya"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by DooDoot »

:alien:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

Ven. V argues that the Dukkha means, in this case, is the body pain.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is this a grave mistake in DN22 translation ( atthaṅgamāya)?

Post by SarathW »

ñāyassa adhigamāya
What is the meaning of the above phrase (not the translation)?
What it means?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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