The supportive god, Brahma

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thomaslaw
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The supportive god, Brahma

Post by thomaslaw »

Hi dhamma friends,

Brahma, or Brahma Sahampati, is regarded in Buddhism as the supportive god for the Buddha, or even for the Buddhist followers. Do any Pali texts indicate clearly such a Brahma belief? Or is the belief just a Theravada or the Thai tradition?

Thanks

Thomas
justindesilva
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by justindesilva »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:31 am Hi dhamma friends,

Brahma, or Brahma Sahampati, is regarded in Buddhism as the supportive god for the Buddha, or even for the Buddhist followers. Do any Pali texts indicate clearly such a Brahma belief? Or is the belief just a Theravada or the Thai tradition?

Thanks

Thomas
Sahampati is the name of a chief in the world of Brahma.
The Ayachana sutta mentions that when Lord Buddha was reluctant at first to expound the damma to the society with the question whether the society can understand the truth of damma due to its heaviness, Brahma sahampati approached Lord Buddha. Then with the notion that there are some who can understand the damma ( say who can wash the dust in their eyes) Be. Sahampati requested L.Buddha to explain the damma to beings, which he did. This is why Brahma sahampati is of importance to Buddhism.
The Thai Buddhists seem to place Brahma sahampati in high veneration than most other theravada Buddhists.
Please read Ayachana sutta for details.
sakyan
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by sakyan »

According to the suttas Brahma Sahampati in his past life was a monk under a past Buddha, having heard the Dhamma he cultivated the five faculties of enlightenment and attained anagami stage and was born in the heavenly pure abodes for Anagamis.

Having attained such benefits because of the past Buddha and the Dhamma, he came down to request Sakyamuni Buddha to preach the Dhamma so other beings also obtain such great benefits.

Being benefitted by the Dhamma himself, he is supportive of those teaching and practicing the Dhamma and being an anagami, he is a sage worthy of respect, honour and offerings.
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Aloka
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by Aloka »

sakyan wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:33 pm According to the suttas Brahma Sahampati in his past life was a monk under a past Buddha, having heard the Dhamma he cultivated the five faculties of enlightenment and attained anagami stage and was born in the heavenly pure abodes for Anagamis.

Having attained such benefits because of the past Buddha and the Dhamma, he came down to request Sakyamuni Buddha to preach the Dhamma so other beings also obtain such great benefits.

Being benefitted by the Dhamma himself, he is supportive of those teaching and practicing the Dhamma and being an anagami, he is a sage worthy of respect, honour and offerings.
Could you provide sutta references, please ?

.
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cappuccino
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by cappuccino »

Aloka wrote: Could you provide sutta references, please?
Ayacana Sutta: The Request
Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
thomaslaw
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by thomaslaw »

Many thanks for your reply.

Yes, the sutta (SN 6.1) indicates clearly the Brahma requested the Buddha to teach the Dhamma to the world. The Buddha accepted the Brahma's request, out of compassion for the world. But, it does not state the Brahma will be and is a supportive god for the Buddha, and/or for the Buddhist followers.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by JamesTheGiant »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:09 am ... But, it does not state the Brahma will be and is a supportive god for the Buddha, and/or for the Buddhist followers.
That's right. From what I've heard, the gods up that high are about as interested in helping us, as humans are interested in helping an ant. We might save the occasional ant from our kitchen counter, but the teeming trillions of ants we just don't notice much.
I have no suttas to back this up however.
sakyan
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by sakyan »

Aloka wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:47 pm
sakyan wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:33 pm According to the suttas Brahma Sahampati in his past life was a monk under a past Buddha, having heard the Dhamma he cultivated the five faculties of enlightenment and attained anagami stage and was born in the heavenly pure abodes for Anagamis.

Having attained such benefits because of the past Buddha and the Dhamma, he came down to request Sakyamuni Buddha to preach the Dhamma so other beings also obtain such great benefits.

Being benefitted by the Dhamma himself, he is supportive of those teaching and practicing the Dhamma and being an anagami, he is a sage worthy of respect, honour and offerings.
Could you provide sutta references, please ?

.

With Brahma Sahampati


At one time, when he was first awakened, the Buddha was staying near Uruvelā at the goatherd’s banyan tree on the bank of the Nerañjarā River.

Then as he was in private retreat this thought came to his mind, “When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.”

Then Brahmā Sahampati knew what the Buddha was thinking. As easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, he vanished from the Brahmā realm and reappeared in front of the Buddha. He arranged his robe over one shoulder, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha, and said:

“That’s so true, Blessed One! That’s so true, Holy One! When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless. What five? The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom. When these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.

Once upon a time, sir, I lived the spiritual life under the fully awakened Buddha Kassapa. There they knew me as the mendicant Sahaka. Because of developing and cultivating these same five faculties I lost desire for sensual pleasures. When my body broke up, after death, I was reborn in a good place, in the Brahmā realm. There they know me as Brahmā Sahampati.

That’s so true, Blessed One! That’s so true, Holy One! I know and see how when these five faculties are developed and cultivated they culminate, finish, and end in the deathless.”
justindesilva
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:42 pm
Aloka wrote: Could you provide sutta references, please?
Ayacana Sutta: The Request
Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
I have written the same as above in my post as the First answer referring to Ayachana sutta. The same contents but goes passing requesting for sutta reference. What's happening. I am just wondering why but not at all angry.
thomaslaw
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by thomaslaw »

sakyan wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:26 am
Aloka wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:47 pm
sakyan wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:33 pm According to the suttas Brahma Sahampati in his past life was a monk under a past Buddha, having heard the Dhamma he cultivated the five faculties of enlightenment and attained anagami stage and was born in the heavenly pure abodes for Anagamis.

Having attained such benefits because of the past Buddha and the Dhamma, he came down to request Sakyamuni Buddha to preach the Dhamma so other beings also obtain such great benefits.

Being benefitted by the Dhamma himself, he is supportive of those teaching and practicing the Dhamma and being an anagami, he is a sage worthy of respect, honour and offerings.
Could you provide sutta references, please ?

.
At one time, when he was first awakened, the Buddha was staying near Uruvelā at the goatherd’s banyan tree on the bank of the Nerañjarā River ... There they know me as Brahmā Sahampati. ...
sakyan,

As requested by Aloka, I am also asking you the same issue: Could you give the sutta references? That is, which sutta (in which Nikaya) you are quoting from?
2600htz
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

Just to be clear, there is a difference between "Brahma" and Brahma Sahampati.
When we talk about Brahma, its usually about another deity: Maha Brahma (the deity who thinks its god, eternal), in suttas like DN-11.


Regards.
sakyan
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by sakyan »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:13 pm
sakyan wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:26 am
Aloka wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:47 pm

Could you provide sutta references, please ?

.
At one time, when he was first awakened, the Buddha was staying near Uruvelā at the goatherd’s banyan tree on the bank of the Nerañjarā River ... There they know me as Brahmā Sahampati. ...
sakyan,

As requested by Aloka, I am also asking you the same issue: Could you give the sutta references? That is, which sutta (in which Nikaya) you are quoting from?
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.57/en/sujato
thomaslaw
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by thomaslaw »

sakyan wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:04 am ...
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.57/en/sujato
Thank you.
thomaslaw
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by thomaslaw »

It seems there is no Pali text indicating clearly Brahma is the supportive god for the Buddha, and/or for the Buddhist followers, although Brahma requested the Buddha to teach the Dhamma to the world.

But Brahma is worshiped alongside with Buddhist rituals, particularly in Thai tradition, for personal needs and beliefs.
Bundokji
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Re: The supportive god, Brahma

Post by Bundokji »

Do we know of any literature that address the encounter between the Buddha and Brahma Sahampati critically?

While how the encounter is described speaks to the human mind, it leaves many questions unanswered:

1- Does the question "why" apply to the Arahant? Or can his actions be accurately explained through this line of reasoning?
2- Do Arahants hesitate or feel burdened?
3- Do they wait for a Brahma to notify them of something they overlooked?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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