Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

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binocular
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Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by binocular »

Greetings.


The Canki Sutta lists a succession of actions/activities and mental states/attitudes, one following from another, and the succession begins with conviction:
/.../
“Conviction is most helpful for visiting, Bhāradvāja. If conviction (in a person) didn’t arise, one wouldn’t visit (that person). Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN95.html
What is meant by conviction here, given that it is something that one is said to have even before one visits, grows close, lends ear, and hears the Dhamma?



Thank you.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:03 pm Greetings.


The Canki Sutta lists a succession of actions/activities and mental states/attitudes, one following from another, and the succession begins with conviction:
/.../
“Conviction is most helpful for visiting, Bhāradvāja. If conviction (in a person) didn’t arise, one wouldn’t visit (that person). Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN95.html
What is meant by conviction here, given that it is something that one is said to have even before one visits, grows close, lends ear, and hears the Dhamma?



Thank you.
What is meant is saddhā, also translated as trust, confidence (in) or faith.

If you look at the whole of the sutta, you will see that the whole thing turns upon who ought to visit who; whether Cankī should stay put and the Buddha visit him, or whether he has adequate grounds for visiting the Buddha. Cankī had conviction sufficient to motivate him, as he had previously heard many wonderful things of the Buddha, his conduct, and the effect upon people. There is the standard phrase:
a good report of the recluse Gotama has been spread to this effect: ‘That Blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.’
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by sentinel »

Conviction is suppose the person has arises the Feeling of Confidence in the buddha or being Optimistic directed towards the buddha or an object .

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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:25 pmIf you look at the whole of the sutta, you will see that the whole thing turns upon who ought to visit who; whether Cankī should stay put and the Buddha visit him, or whether he has adequate grounds for visiting the Buddha. Cankī had conviction sufficient to motivate him, as he had previously heard many wonderful things of the Buddha, his conduct, and the effect upon people.
So Canki was basically going by his gut feeling, or, to use a portion of the sequence from the Kalama Sutta, by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, while feeling good about these reports, legends etc.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:12 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:25 pmIf you look at the whole of the sutta, you will see that the whole thing turns upon who ought to visit who; whether Cankī should stay put and the Buddha visit him, or whether he has adequate grounds for visiting the Buddha. Cankī had conviction sufficient to motivate him, as he had previously heard many wonderful things of the Buddha, his conduct, and the effect upon people.
So Canki was basically going by his gut feeling, or, to use a portion of the sequence from the Kalama Sutta, by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, while feeling good about these reports, legends etc.
I don't know if it would be appropriate to call it a "gut feeling", but no, it certainly isn't appropriate to "use a portion of the sequence from the Kalama Sutta" in this context. The Kalama Sutta sequence is the Buddha's recommendation regarding what to do when faced with different doctrines, not about what motivates one to pay attention to a teacher. If you look at AN 3.65, it actually has the identical pericope as MN 95:
The Kalamas of Kesaputta heard it said, "Gotama the contemplative — the son of the Sakyans, having gone forth from the Sakyan clan — has arrived at Kesaputta. And of that Master Gotama this fine reputation has spread: 'He is indeed a Blessed One, worthy, & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, a knower of the cosmos, an unexcelled trainer of those persons ready to be tamed, teacher of human & divine beings, awakened, blessed. He has made known — having realized it through direct knowledge — this world with its devas, maras, & brahmas, its generations with their contemplatives & brahmans, their rulers & common people; has explained the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; has expounded the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure. It is good to see such a worthy one.'"
So to say that responding to reports of the Buddha's qualities (which is a standard pericope scattered throughout the Nikayas) runs afoul of the advice to the Kalamas would be self-contradictory to the point of broad humour.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by binocular »

When one hears about someone and that person is being praised, and this awakens one's interest in that person, what else is that but going by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability? And we can add "praised by the wise".

That the sequence is mentioned in the Kalama Sutta is irrelevant to my point, I just mentioned the source.

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:27 pmSo to say that responding to reports of the Buddha's qualities (which is a standard pericope scattered throughout the Nikayas) runs afoul of the advice to the Kalamas would be self-contradictory to the point of broad humour.
The Kalamas had to have a reason why they went and asked precisely the Buddha about what to do when faced with different doctrines.
Already by taking the question to him and listening to his answer, the Kalamas show that they do consider the Buddha worthy of listening to, more than others.

(And since in the end of the Kalama Sutta, they go for refuge to the Buddha, the Kalama Sutta could be a didactic device, more than an account of an actual exchange.)
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:20 pm When one hears about someone and that person is being praised, and this awakens one's interest in that person, what else is that but going by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability? And we can add "praised by the wise".
I don't know what else it is; it could be a kammic predisposition from a previous life, for example, but that's above my pay grade.

You need to be more precise about what you mean by "going by". In the Kalama Sutta it appears to mean something along the lines of "believing" or "acting upon", whereas this could not be the case regarding "a good word of the Blessed One's reputation has spread as follows..."

The reports, etc. may be perfectly adequate criteria for paying attention, but not for believing or acting upon.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Pulsar »

Definition of gut feeling is
an instinctive feeling, as opposed to an opinion based on facts
Apparently this is what Canki sutta means, since the guy has still not been exposed to Dhamma, just based on the heard, he intuited.
There is a sutta, I think in Samyutta, where Sariputta says his faith or trust in Buddha/Dhamma is not a lightly held conviction like this, but having investigated  Dhamma, he has come to the conclusion AKA firm conviction
sutta number?? my memory is stubborn and does not reveal,
SDC has a photographic memory, on another thread he admitted:
Have them all memorized. I definitely don't ever use the Sutta Central search function
What a resource for DW, the go to person when one gets stuck. He will retrieve it for us. A shout out to SDC.
But to get back to this sutta it seems to get at the truth, Buddha  advices 
“Exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, 
“Contemplating is most helpful for exertion, 
“Being willing.… If one weren’t willing, one wouldn’t contemplate.…”
“Desire.… If desire didn’t arise, one wouldn’t be willing.
“Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas.… If one didn’t come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn’t arise.…”
“Penetrating the meaning.… “Remembering the Dhamma.… 
“Hearing the Dhamma.…
“Lending ear...“Growing close.… “Visiting.… If one didn’t visit, one wouldn’t grow close.…”
“But what quality is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for visiting.”
“Conviction is most helpful for visiting, Bhāradvāja. If conviction (in a person) didn’t arise, one wouldn’t visit (that person)
Ongoing conversation supports the thesis, "gut feeling is a prerequisite to firm conviction", since firm conviction like Sariputta developed, requires all the said steps. I am sure contemplation here means the last two step of 8fp, Samma Sati and Samma Samadhi, the right contemplation.
Thanks Binocular, for these instructions by Buddha to a young, shaven-headed, sixteen year old kid, a master of the Three Vedas
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:49 pm SDC has a photographic memory, on another thread he admitted:
Have them all memorized. I definitely don't ever use the Sutta Central search function
What a resource for DW, the go to person when one gets stuck. He will retrieve it for us. A shout to SDC.
Dude, I was being sarcastic. I'm a dear friend if that search function. :rofl:

It is probably AN 10.68 that you are referring to.

I take my leave...
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Pulsar »

SDC wrote
'Dude, I was being sarcastic'
Cool! it is a consolation that you are still here, after visiting
Queens...
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:28 pm SDC wrote
'Dude, I was being sarcastic'
Cool! it is a consolation that you are still here, after visiting
Queens...
Indeed it is! See the edit above.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Sam Vara »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:49 pm
There is a sutta, I think in Samyutta, where Sariputta says his faith or trust in Buddha/Dhamma is not a lightly held conviction like this, but having investigated  Dhamma, he has come to the conclusion AKA firm conviction
sutta number?? my memory is stubborn and does not reveal,
SDC has a photographic memory, on another thread he admitted:
Have them all memorized. I definitely don't ever use the Sutta Central search function
What a resource for DW, the go to person when one gets stuck. He will retrieve it for us. A shout out to SDC.
At least one version of that encounter is in SN 48.44. Unlike SDC, I don't need to memorise. Just like a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, I just go and get it directly. :rofl:
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Dhammanando »

binocular wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:20 pm When one hears about someone and that person is being praised, and this awakens one's interest in that person, what else is that but going by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability? And we can add "praised by the wise".
Your question assumes that the decision to visit is always a reasoned one. The traditional Buddhist assumption, on the other hand, is that merely getting to hear about the Buddha or his teaching is due to the ripening of some past wholesome kamma, while being moved to go and pay him a visit or to learn more about his teaching would be attributed to other past life conditions (chiefly what the Abhidhamma calls 'natural decisive support condition'). And so the brahmin Sela, for example, feels moved to go and visit the Buddha merely after hearing the word 'buddho' mentioned at a wedding feast.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Also, as I understand. There are fortunate types of people born with the three roots of Alobha, Adosa and Amoha. Here Amoha is synonymous with pañña. I am pretty convinced that anyone born in a non-buddhist country who becomes interested in the Dhamma must be of this innate intelligence type. Its just covered up by the nivaranas. But perhaps initially by tanha-ditthi-mana. Practice and see, maybe.
I do and I understand.
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Re: Canki Sutta: What is meant by conviction?

Post by sentinel »

The probably best description of faith follower in buddhism would be as below .
Faith in buddhism is not superstitious or blinds although there seems to be many .


https://suttacentral.net/sn25.1/en/sujato

At Sāvatthī.

“Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing.

Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
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