About cessation feeling perception

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sentinel
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About cessation feeling perception

Post by sentinel »

Questions :

According to texts , does the state of cessation of feeling and perception categorised as arupa jhana or formless attaintment ?


According to below text it seems the householder Citta was interrogating the monk Ven Kamabhu where this imply either Citta attaintment is higher or equivalent to monk Kamabhu , is this the case ?!

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Very good, venerable sir." And, delighting in and approving of Ven. Kamabhu's answer, Citta asked him a further question: "How many mental qualities are of great help in the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling?"
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JohnK
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by JohnK »

I just happened to read this evening a footnote to SN 41:3; Thanissaro Bhikkhu says
"Citta the householder was a lay non-returner who had a fondness for posing difficult questions to monks."
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
sentinel
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by sentinel »

JohnK wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:43 am I just happened to read this evening a footnote to SN 41:3; Thanissaro Bhikkhu says
"Citta the householder was a lay non-returner who had a fondness for posing difficult questions to monks."
Thanks John , but it is strange for a non returner appear has an attitude of embarrassing monastics !
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JohnK
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by JohnK »

SN 41:3 is worth a read -- in this case, rather than embarrassing, he seems to have provided an opportunity.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN41_3.html
A sutta well worth reading in any case.
(An aside: In the suttas, the monks ask each other advanced questions pretty regularly.)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

sentinel wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:14 am
JohnK wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:43 am I just happened to read this evening a footnote to SN 41:3; Thanissaro Bhikkhu says
"Citta the householder was a lay non-returner who had a fondness for posing difficult questions to monks."
Thanks John , but it is strange for a non returner appear has an attitude of embarrassing monastics !
A good challenge is a gift.

There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self. And dukkha is foundation for liberation. See MN9, DN12.23.
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santa100
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote:According to texts , does the state of cessation of feeling and perception categorised as arupa jhana or formless attaintment ?
No, it's a class all by itself. One has to "completely surmount" that highest formless attainment, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in order to enter it.
MN 25 wrote:Again, by completely surmounting the base of neitherperception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This bhikkhu is saive blindfolded M›ra, to have become invisible to the Evil One by depriving M›ra’s eye of its opportunity, and to have crossed beyond attachment to the world.
sentinel
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by sentinel »

santa100 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:44 pm
No, it's a class all by itself. One has to "completely surmount" that highest formless attainment, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in order to enter it.
So , which corresponding realm could it be that they would reappear after the breakup of the body for those with attaintment in cessation feeling perception ?
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cappuccino
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by cappuccino »

sentinel wrote: So , which corresponding realm could it be that they would reappear after the breakup of the body for those with attaintment in cessation feeling perception ?
cessation of is temporary
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auto
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by auto »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:20 am
sentinel wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:14 am
JohnK wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:43 am I just happened to read this evening a footnote to SN 41:3; Thanissaro Bhikkhu says
Thanks John , but it is strange for a non returner appear has an attitude of embarrassing monastics !
A good challenge is a gift.

There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self. And dukkha is foundation for liberation. See MN9, DN12.23.
Grasping is craving for the identity. Identity itself is grasping aggregates. Embarrassment is identity. Embarrassment is self inflicted and it is you who is possessing the knowledge about the embarrassment.

Unless you know how the embarrassment comes about(without using body and speech) you are subject to have sensory reaction(paṭigha), sensory reaction is some sort of aggravation.

if you are eventually able to comprehend it mentally at a time it occurs before coming sensory then it will almost be paṭigha, you are able to contain its expanding nature.
santa100
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote:So , which corresponding realm could it be that they would reappear after the breakup of the body for those with attaintment in cessation feeling perception ?
Notice that the prerequisite to NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami, so after the breakup of the body, either Nibbana or at least the Pure Abodes realm.
sentinel
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by sentinel »

santa100 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:17 pm Notice that the prerequisite to NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami, so after the breakup of the body, either Nibbana or at least the Pure Abodes realm.
Is that something tally with attaintment to reappear on pure realm ? And why not reappear on Arupa realm ?
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santa100
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by santa100 »

sentinel wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:29 pm
santa100 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:17 pm Notice that the prerequisite to NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami, so after the breakup of the body, either Nibbana or at least the Pure Abodes realm.
Is that something tally with attaintment to reappear on pure realm ? And why not reappear on Arupa realm ?
Notice the Arupa realm isn't all it's cracked up to be. Folks up there while enjoying unparalleled levels of bliss, are not able to hear the Dhamma teaching!. Anyway, I did not architect the system. You're gonna have to ask the big boss about that.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

auto wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:16 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:20 am
sentinel wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:14 am

Thanks John , but it is strange for a non returner appear has an attitude of embarrassing monastics !
A good challenge is a gift.

There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self. And dukkha is foundation for liberation. See MN9, DN12.23.
Grasping is craving for the identity. Identity itself is grasping aggregates. Embarrassment is identity. Embarrassment is self inflicted and it is you who is possessing the knowledge about the embarrassment.

Unless you know how the embarrassment comes about(without using body and speech) you are subject to have sensory reaction(paṭigha), sensory reaction is some sort of aggravation.

if you are eventually able to comprehend it mentally at a time it occurs before coming sensory then it will almost be paṭigha, you are able to contain its expanding nature.
I understand embarrassment. Did I not say, "There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self."?
But for one who experiences it (perhaps, as you suggested, a monastic questioned by Citta the householder - but hopefully, perhaps not those monastics), it would be worth observing and examining it. And that is the dukkha to which I referred.
To know clearly (pajānāti), dukkha, its origin, its cessation, and the practice leading to its cessation, is one way the Ven Sariputta used to define "a noble disciple who has right view, whose view is correct, who has experiential confidence in the teaching, and has come to the true teaching in MN9.
- MettaDevPrac
chownah
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:17 pm
sentinel wrote:So , which corresponding realm could it be that they would reappear after the breakup of the body for those with attaintment in cessation feeling perception ?
Notice that the prerequisite to NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami, so after the breakup of the body, either Nibbana or at least the Pure Abodes realm.
I haven't been reading all the posting here....has a reference which shows that NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami already been given here?....and if not can you bring one?
chownah
santa100
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by santa100 »

chownah wrote:I haven't been reading all the posting here....has a reference which shows that NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami already been given here?....and if not can you bring one?
chownah
From the Pali dictionary which cited Vism. XXIII:
[nirodha-samapatti]'attainment of extinction' (S. XIV, 11), also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha, 'extinction of feeling and perception', is the temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception' (s. jhāna, 8). The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions (jhāna), as well as the previous attainment of Anāgāmī or Arahantship (s. ariya-puggala).
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