About cessation feeling perception

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by auto »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:25 am I understand embarrassment. Did I not say, "There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self."?
But for one who experiences it (perhaps, as you suggested, a monastic questioned by Citta the householder - but hopefully, perhaps not those monastics), it would be worth observing and examining it. And that is the dukkha to which I referred.
if i get those feelings they get me heat. Also same heat can arise from joints and other ways. I can say dukkha is required for heat, relevant for practice, to arise.
and also I can see how it is desire what makes this dukkha relevant(since not all pain can be ceased[at current development]), i feel that kind of pain is something i can deal with my mind if not today then eventually, at least faster than last time and discover some better way and supporting conditions to do so.

Emotions can get me to move my body like uncomfortable physical nature would eventually when it is persisting and don't go away. The decision to withstand is what gets me to sensation what seem fruitful and after that I don't have desire to move the body, rather I don't care since I got my fruit. This way I practice, looking for fruitful sensations, fruitful in a sense there have put in lots of effort and work. In a long run its pretty satisfying to get it with much less effort than I used to. There are several types of fruits, the best are for me if I discover something new what changes the practice outlook, kind of overhauls the system.
2600htz
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by 2600htz »

sentinel wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:03 am Questions :

According to texts , does the state of cessation of feeling and perception categorised as arupa jhana or formless attaintment ?


According to below text it seems the householder Citta was interrogating the monk Ven Kamabhu where this imply either Citta attaintment is higher or equivalent to monk Kamabhu , is this the case ?!

Hi:

Cessation of feeling and perception its outside of samsara, there is no mental activity on that state, so there are no qualities like in jhana or arupa/formless dimensions to which a person could delight or crave and would bring renewal of existence.

If someone like an Anagami is able to enter that state, and then he dies and is reborn in a pure abode, its not because of something he did inside that state, but because he has some craving for existence and delights in some things still, like dhamma, or arupa pleasure, or rupa pleasure.


Regards.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

auto wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:59 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:25 am I understand embarrassment. Did I not say, "There cannot be embarrassment without grasping at Self."?
But for one who experiences it (perhaps, as you suggested, a monastic questioned by Citta the householder - but hopefully, perhaps not those monastics), it would be worth observing and examining it. And that is the dukkha to which I referred.
if i get those feelings they get me heat. Also same heat can arise from joints and other ways. I can say dukkha is required for heat, relevant for practice, to arise.
and also I can see how it is desire what makes this dukkha relevant(since not all pain can be ceased[at current development]), i feel that kind of pain is something i can deal with my mind if not today then eventually, at least faster than last time and discover some better way and supporting conditions to do so.

Emotions can get me to move my body like uncomfortable physical nature would eventually when it is persisting and don't go away. The decision to withstand is what gets me to sensation what seem fruitful and after that I don't have desire to move the body, rather I don't care since I got my fruit. This way I practice, looking for fruitful sensations, fruitful in a sense there have put in lots of effort and work. In a long run its pretty satisfying to get it with much less effort than I used to. There are several types of fruits, the best are for me if I discover something new what changes the practice outlook, kind of overhauls the system.
Words like "withstand" suggest you might speaking of strong/intense ascetic practices (or could be understood by others that way). These might strengthen the will, but be careful they are based on Right View. The boddisatta renounced the extremes of asceticism before he became the Buddha. Striving with Mind he reached the culmination and true doctrine. This he used the remainder of his existence to teach, out of compassion.

:) Hoping you are well grounding in the true Teachings and practice.
- MettaDevPrac
chownah
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by chownah »

santa100 wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:52 pm
chownah wrote:I haven't been reading all the posting here....has a reference which shows that NirodhaSamapatti is either Arahantship or at least Anagami already been given here?....and if not can you bring one?
chownah
From the Pali dictionary which cited Vism. XXIII:
[nirodha-samapatti]'attainment of extinction' (S. XIV, 11), also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha, 'extinction of feeling and perception', is the temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception' (s. jhāna, 8). The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions (jhāna), as well as the previous attainment of Anāgāmī or Arahantship (s. ariya-puggala).
Thanks for that. I got the vism. through accesstoinsight and it had one reference to NirodhaSamapatti :
cessation (nirodha) I.140; IV.78, 186; VII.27;
XVI.15, 18, 23f., 62f., 94; XVII.62; XX.7,
100; XXI.10, 77; XXII.5, 46, 92; XXIII.6,
10, 28; c. attainment (nirodha-samápatti)
III.120; IX.104; XI.124; XII.32; XVII.47;
XXIII.14; 17f.. See also contemplation
of c.
It doesn't show S. XIV, 11.......I don't know how these references work. I searched the vism. for "extinction" thinking that I would find it at s. xiv, 11 but did not.....any help in finding this would be appreciated.
chownah
auto
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by auto »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:34 am Words like "withstand" suggest you might speaking of strong/intense ascetic practices (or could be understood by others that way). These might strengthen the will, but be careful they are based on Right View. The boddisatta renounced the extremes of asceticism before he became the Buddha. Striving with Mind he reached the culmination and true doctrine. This he used the remainder of his existence to teach, out of compassion.

:) Hoping you are well grounding in the true Teachings and practice.
if i sit(or whatever activity, watching shows, gaming becomes boring at some point), there will nothing happen. Nothing happen because sensual pleasure haven't subsided yet completely but they do at some point and dukkha arises, then the practice starts, mainly about getting acquainted, succeeded.. and for people who are dependent on mating other persons will make family on their own to feel worthy or something, contribute to the society.

person who doesn't have mate, still need contribute, make a donation, religious donation.. that same energy what is "lost" at night.

Like in the vedas, its about generating generations(yugas). And in Mahabharata, if you don't, you anger your ancestors.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

auto wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:11 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:34 am Words like "withstand" suggest you might speaking of strong/intense ascetic practices (or could be understood by others that way). These might strengthen the will, but be careful they are based on Right View. The boddisatta renounced the extremes of asceticism before he became the Buddha. Striving with Mind he reached the culmination and true doctrine. This he used the remainder of his existence to teach, out of compassion.

:) Hoping you are well grounding in the true Teachings and practice.
if i sit(or whatever activity, watching shows, gaming becomes boring at some point), there will nothing happen. Nothing happen because sensual pleasure haven't subsided yet completely but they do at some point and dukkha arises, then the practice starts, mainly about getting acquainted, succeeded.. and for people who are dependent on mating other persons will make family on their own to feel worthy or something, contribute to the society.

person who doesn't have mate, still need contribute, make a donation, religious donation.. that same energy what is "lost" at night.

Like in the vedas, its about generating generations(yugas). And in Mahabharata, if you don't, you anger your ancestors.
ok, interesting, but I'm not sure this aspect of Hindu familial responsibilities belongs in a General Theravada discussion forum thread About cessation feeling perception. But perhaps a new topic in Connections to Other Paths, on how generating new/more generations may be seen as a Veda described responsibility, might be very interest to some. (It's not personally relevant, so thank you, I am done with the side topic.)
- MettaDevPrac
auto
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by auto »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:26 pm ok, interesting, but I'm not sure this aspect of Hindu familial responsibilities belongs in a General Theravada discussion forum thread About cessation feeling perception. But perhaps a new topic in Connections to Other Paths, on how generating new/more generations may be seen as a Veda described responsibility, might be very interest to some. (It's not personally relevant, so thank you, I am done with the side topic.)
why I even bothered to contact you is I think you are no-selfer.
I don't see how one could do any sort of progress, without sense of self, what will result in discernment(specific way of seeing).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassanā wrote:Vipassanā (Pāli) or vipaśyanā (Sanskrit) literally, "special-seeing",[1] "special (Vi), seeing (Passanā)",[2] is a Buddhist term that is often translated as "insight".
bye.
santa100
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by santa100 »

chownah wrote:It doesn't show S. XIV, 11.......I don't know how these references work. I searched the vism. for "extinction" thinking that I would find it at s. xiv, 11 but did not.....any help in finding this would be appreciated.
chownah
As mentioned, Vism XXIII gave a very detailed description of Nirodha attainment. The specific paragraph on who can or cannot attain this specific kind of attainement is at Vism XXIII-section 18-page 735.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

auto wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:30 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:26 pm ok, interesting, but I'm not sure this aspect of Hindu familial responsibilities belongs in a General Theravada discussion forum thread About cessation feeling perception. But perhaps a new topic in Connections to Other Paths, on how generating new/more generations may be seen as a Veda described responsibility, might be very interest to some. (It's not personally relevant, so thank you, I am done with the side topic.)
why I even bothered to contact you is I think you are no-selfer.
I don't see how one could do any sort of progress, without sense of self, what will result in discernment(specific way of seeing).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassanā wrote:Vipassanā (Pāli) or vipaśyanā (Sanskrit) literally, "special-seeing",[1] "special (Vi), seeing (Passanā)",[2] is a Buddhist term that is often translated as "insight".
bye.
I consider the Self to be a label usually applied to partial awareness and understanding of form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. The parts exist; the assembly appears to exist, but it's held together by craving alone.

I consider discernment to be part of the practice which leads to the end of suffering; it depends upon Right View.

I don't venerate procreation. I don't see veneration of procreation as leading towards an end of suffering.

You seem to be irritated, or disappointed with my response; you mght want to ask what's irritated or disappointed and why. You have posted on a internet Buddhist forum, so have I. May we each be well, and may the skillful be nourished, in each of our lives, and in all lives.
- MettaDevPrac
auto
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by auto »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:12 am I consider the Self to be a label usually applied to partial awareness and understanding of form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. The parts exist; the assembly appears to exist, but it's held together by craving alone.
When you are aware, then have you tried to come even more aware? in order to do so you need support or something what keeps getting you the taste of 'what is to be aware', and then notice that it is reverse concentration upon oneself what enhances the clarity of your own being.
Point is when you say awareness, it is what you imagine what it is after the fact, but once you want to do it in real time and actually be aware then it is way different.

Therefore yes, for you the self is just a label. Hence you are no-selfer
MettaDevPrac wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:12 am I don't venerate procreation. I don't see veneration of procreation as leading towards an end of suffering.
if you are celibate, there are in the body many supports what will cause the same thing as like you have procreated. That's really the point you can't do celibacy if you not know the better way than procreation is, that's what celibacy is, it doesn't mean stopping procreation.

The idea is there is no empty space, you can't just think things out from nothing, no self can't be without there be a self. In order to have nothing it has to have essence before, emptiness has its own nature in that regards. You can't read Sutta and adopt that there is no self. No-self is meant for them who have self, like those who accompany brahman and brahman itself, 1-2 jhana, in order to get to 3rd jhana or to say there is further progress to be possible. No-selfers progress is a mere label.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

Post by MettaDevPrac »

auto wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:14 pm
MettaDevPrac wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:12 am I consider the Self to be a label usually applied to partial awareness and understanding of form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. The parts exist; the assembly appears to exist, but it's held together by craving alone.
When you are aware, then have you tried to come even more aware? in order to do so you need support or something what keeps getting you the taste of 'what is to be aware', and then notice that it is reverse concentration upon oneself what enhances the clarity of your own being.
Point is when you say awareness, it is what you imagine what it is after the fact, but once you want to do it in real time and actually be aware then it is way different.

Therefore yes, for you the self is just a label. Hence you are no-selfer
MettaDevPrac wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:12 am I don't venerate procreation. I don't see veneration of procreation as leading towards an end of suffering.
if you are celibate, there are in the body many supports what will cause the same thing as like you have procreated. That's really the point you can't do celibacy if you not know the better way than procreation is, that's what celibacy is, it doesn't mean stopping procreation.

The idea is there is no empty space, you can't just think things out from nothing, no self can't be without there be a self. In order to have nothing it has to have essence before, emptiness has its own nature in that regards. You can't read Sutta and adopt that there is no self. No-self is meant for them who have self, like those who accompany brahman and brahman itself, 1-2 jhana, in order to get to 3rd jhana or to say there is further progress to be possible. No-selfers progress is a mere label.


As I said before "You have posted on a internet Buddhist forum, so have I. May we each be well, and may the skillful be nourished, in each of our lives, and in all lives."

:) Good luck. I will not interact with you on this forum further.
- MettaDevPrac
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SDC
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Re: About cessation feeling perception

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