Correct Translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta

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sphairos
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Re: Correct Translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta

Post by sphairos »

Assaji wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:03 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:46 pm What is the best translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta in relation to sense perception?
Taking in account the final verses of this sutta:
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.

"Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
— 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' —
there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

I would humbly propose:
Iti kho, bhikkhave, tathāgato daṭṭhā daṭṭhabbaṁ, diṭṭhaṁ na maññati, adiṭṭhaṁ na maññati, daṭṭhabbaṁ na maññati, daṭṭhāraṁ na maññati; sutvā sotabbaṁ, sutaṁ na maññati, asutaṁ na maññati, sotabbaṁ na maññati, sotāraṁ na maññati; mutvā motabbaṁ, mutaṁ na maññati, amutaṁ na maññati, motabbaṁ na maññati, motāraṁ na maññati; viññatvā viññātabbaṁ, viññātaṁ na maññati, aviññātaṁ na maññati, viññātabbaṁ na maññati, viññātāraṁ na maññati.

(1) “So, having seen what can be seen, the Tathāgata does not assume the seen, does not assume the unseen, does not assume what can be seen, does not assume one who sees. (2) Having heard what can be heard, he does not assume the heard, does not assume the unheard, does not assume what can be heard, does not assume one who hears. (3) Having sensed what can be sensed, he does not assume the sensed, does not assume the unsensed, does not assume what can be sensed, does not assume one who senses. (4) Having cognized what can be cognized, he does not assume the cognized, does not assume the uncognized, does not assume what can be cognized, does not assume one who cognizes.
Corrections are welcome.

Metta!
I would replace "assume" with "conceive".

In general it seems to be the same teaching as in MN 1 and as in the Aṭṭhakavagga. Ven, Ñāṇānanda's book about this sutta is really deep.
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asahi
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Correct Translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta

Post by asahi »

Assaji wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:03 pm Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:46 pm What is the best translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta in relation to sense perception?
Taking in account the final verses of this sutta:
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.

"Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
— 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' —
there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html

I would humbly propose:
Iti kho, bhikkhave, tathāgato daṭṭhā daṭṭhabbaṁ, diṭṭhaṁ na maññati, adiṭṭhaṁ na maññati, daṭṭhabbaṁ na maññati, daṭṭhāraṁ na maññati; sutvā sotabbaṁ, sutaṁ na maññati, asutaṁ na maññati, sotabbaṁ na maññati, sotāraṁ na maññati; mutvā motabbaṁ, mutaṁ na maññati, amutaṁ na maññati, motabbaṁ na maññati, motāraṁ na maññati; viññatvā viññātabbaṁ, viññātaṁ na maññati, aviññātaṁ na maññati, viññātabbaṁ na maññati, viññātāraṁ na maññati.

(1) “So, having seen what can be seen, the Tathāgata does not assume the seen, does not assume the unseen, does not assume what can be seen, does not assume one who sees. (2) Having heard what can be heard, he does not assume the heard, does not assume the unheard, does not assume what can be heard, does not assume one who hears. (3) Having sensed what can be sensed, he does not assume the sensed, does not assume the unsensed, does not assume what can be sensed, does not assume one who senses. (4) Having cognized what can be cognized, he does not assume the cognized, does not assume the uncognized, does not assume what can be cognized, does not assume one who cognizes.
Corrections are welcome.

Metta!
Hi Assaji ,


What do you mean by assume ?


:thanks:
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Assaji
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Re: Correct Translation of the Kāḷakārāma Sutta

Post by Assaji »

Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:21 pm What do you mean by assume ?
"To take for granted; suppose"

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=assume

"take to be the case or to be true"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/assume

This directly resonates with the final verse of the Sutta:
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.
:anjali:
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