How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?
When Buddha was born, there were many people in India claimed that they have attained Nibbana.
Buddha's former teachers, as well as ascetics Niganthanatha Putta, also claimed that they have attained Nibbana.
What is the difference between the Nibbana claimed by others and what Buddha discovered?
What is the basis that the Nibbana discovered by Buddha is the final?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10552
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Buddha’s awakening and Nibbana seems to have been different in that he didn’t proclaim one of the many speculative views, such as the world being eternal or not or if the Tathāgata lives after death or not etc. All the others took a definite view point.

Metta

:)
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
User avatar
bazzaman
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by bazzaman »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81 ... ee_fetters
"Skeptical doubt - Doubt about the Buddha, his teaching (Dharma), and his community (Sangha) is eradicated because the sotāpanna personally experiences the true nature of reality through insight, and this insight confirms the accuracy of the Buddha's teaching. Seeing removes doubt, because the sight is a form of vision (dassana), that allows one to know (ñāṇa)."

Since you consider yourself to be a sotapanna, and therefore have eradicated this fetter, I wonder why you would ask such a question.
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

bazzaman wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:28 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sot%C4%81 ... ee_fetters
"Skeptical doubt - Doubt about the Buddha, his teaching (Dharma), and his community (Sangha) is eradicated because the sotāpanna personally experiences the true nature of reality through insight, and this insight confirms the accuracy of the Buddha's teaching. Seeing removes doubt, because the sight is a form of vision (dassana), that allows one to know (ñāṇa)."

Since you consider yourself to be a sotapanna, and therefore have eradicated this fetter, I wonder why you would ask such a question.
Perhaps I am not a Sotapanna. :embarassed:
I watch too much of videos of mr. Trump's morning show.
By the way what is the true nature of reality?
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 pm The Buddha’s awakening and Nibbana seems to have been different in that he didn’t proclaim one of the many speculative views, such as the world being eternal or not or if the Tathāgata lives after death or not etc. All the others took a definite view point.

Metta

:)
Does this mean Buddha had the right view or he did not have views?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10552
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:50 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:19 pm The Buddha’s awakening and Nibbana seems to have been different in that he didn’t proclaim one of the many speculative views, such as the world being eternal or not or if the Tathāgata lives after death or not etc. All the others took a definite view point.

Metta

:)
Does this mean Buddha had the right view or he did not have views?
My understanding is that Right View leads to the cessation of all views, including itself:
"A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless,’ is a viewpoint. The extent to which there are viewpoints, view-stances, the taking up of views, obsessions of views, the cause of views, & the uprooting of views: that’s what I know. That’s what I see. Knowing that, I say ‘I know.’ Seeing that, I say ‘I see.’ Why should I say ‘I don’t know, I don’t see’? I do know. I do see.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.96/en/thanissaro

Metta

:)
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks.
But some argues that not having a view also a view.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10552
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:52 am Thanks.
But some argues that not having a view also a view.
I would say if you completely let go and stop at bare experience of phenomena (feeling and perception) and do not assail sense perception with craving, conceit and views then there is no basis for a view to arise. There would just be Suchness, no more, no less. Remove the subject and you remove the object, and so no views.

Metta

:)
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks. This sounds like Bahiya sutta.
Does this mean, what Nibbana is when you have perception and feeling only?
Then what about Neither perception nor non perception?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
chownah
Posts: 9073
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by chownah »

SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:05 pm How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?
If you really want to find out how you know that the buddha attained nibbana I suggest that first you forget trying to find out how you know that and instead try to figure out how you know anything. There are different ways to "know" things and different people seem to use some ways more than others even to the point that some ways are not used at all by some people.......pick a bunch of mundane things and figure out how you "know" them......then pick some mildly pertinent things and figure out how you "know" them.....and work your way up to the buddha and nibbana.....

This is a serious suggestion and can lead to a better understanding of how stress arises....but I don't expect that many people will undertake this daunting task....
chownah
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: there were many people in India who claimed that they have attained Nibbana.
No…

previous teachers were speaking of 31 realms

Buddha (alone) went beyond
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
SarathW
Posts: 14948
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by SarathW »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:48 am
SarathW wrote: there were many people in India who claimed that they have attained Nibbana.
No…

previous teachers were speaking of 31 realms

Buddha (alone) went beyond
I think the word Nirvana was there even before Buddha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: I think the word Nirvana was there even before Buddha.
yes… for describing the cooling of rice
"All men's souls are immortal, but the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine." -Socrates
Good for Your Soul
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 13649
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by DNS »

Apparently Buddhism is the first religion to use the term Nibbana (Skt: Nirvana). The other Dharmic religions copied it from Buddhism. The Jains referred to enlightenment as moksha (freedom) and used the term Nirvana later. The Hindus did not have the term until the Bhagavad Gita, which was after Buddhism was in place.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana

The Buddha's former teachers taught him jhanas up to the formless realms, but not to Nibbana. The other Dharmic religions can take you to the base camp; but to the summit, you need Buddhism.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 10552
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: How do we know that Buddha attained Nibbana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:12 am Thanks. This sounds like Bahiya sutta.
Does this mean, what Nibbana is when you have perception and feeling only?
Then what about Neither perception nor non perception?
Feeling, perception and the use of concepts without being deluded by them.

What about it?
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti

“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
Post Reply