Consciousness as nama ?

[SteRo]

But your point is worthless.

Not at all since when one teachings says consciousness belongs to nama category and the other teachings says consciousness does not belong to nama category then these are two different teachings. And one who wants to follow these two different teachings will experience conflict or confusion.

Because nowhere, in any early schools, did viññana come to belong to rūpa. Nowhere !?!?!

That's completely irrelevant for the point I have been making. It's not about schools but about teachings. You might be interested in schools but that's not been the point here and I am not interested in schools at all.

And what teaching says consciousness does not belong to nama category ?!?!?

.
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I have quoted two suttas above.

[ToVincent]

Not at all since when one teachings says consciousness belongs to nama category and the other teachings says consciousness does not belong to nama category then these are two different teachings. And one who wants to follow these two different teachings will experience conflict or confusion.


That's completely irrelevant for the point I have been making. It's not about schools but about teachings. You might be interested in schools but that's not been the point here and I am not interested in schools at all.

And what teaching says consciousness does not belong to nama category ?!?!?

.
.

I have quoted two suttas above.

Link please!

[SteRo]

That is a good example for an inconsistency of the Pali canon suttas. There are quite a few inconsistencies which proves that the Pali canon actually is a collection of different teachings for different audiences and not meant to be considered as the one teaching of the Buddha for all of his followers

Nonsense. It simply shows that some words are context specific, as with all languages.

That's hilarious when the issue is categorization of a phenomenon within a teaching. But your response reveals the fundamental weakness of the Theravada doctrine. I have encountered this very often. Most Theravadins are unable to consistently explain their doctrine.

[SteRo]

And what teaching says consciousness does not belong to nama category ?!?!?

.
.

I have quoted two suttas above.

Link please!

Look it up above please!

[ToVincent]

I have quoted two suttas above.

Link please!

Look it up above please!

You mean this?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36776#p553316
Because these are the only suttas you've been quoting.
Is that a joke?


_____
The clampdown is a great opportunity to spend time with superfluous matters.

[SteRo]

Link please!

Look it up above please!

You mean this?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36776#p553316
Because these are the only suttas you've been quoting.
Is that a joke?

That's not a joke but these two suttas belong to a teaching circle within the Pali canon suttas that teaches that consciousness is not categorized as nama.

[ToVincent]

That's not a joke but these two suttas belong to a teaching circle within the Pali canon suttas that teaches that consciousness is not categorized as nama.

Oh, that's interesting.
I suppose that I have to be intelligent to understand this analogy.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36776#p553316

"Teaching circle", hum.
Quite interesting indeed.

_______

The clampdown is a great opportunity to spend superfluous time with superfluous thoughts.

[SteRo]

"Teaching circle", hum.
Quite interesting indeed.

Yes the suttas of the Pali canon are actually a collection of separate teaching circles. "different teachings under one umbrella" so to say.

[ToVincent]

"Teaching circle", hum.
Quite interesting indeed.

Yes the suttas of the Pali canon are actually a collection of separate teaching circles. "different teachings under one umbrella" so to say.

Oh, that's even more interesting, indeed.
An umbrella. How nice. And so helpful.
_______

The clampdown is a great opportunity to spend superfluous time with superfluous matters & thoughts. But still, I don't have that much time.

[SteRo]

"Teaching circle", hum.
Quite interesting indeed.

Yes the suttas of the Pali canon are actually a collection of separate teaching circles. "different teachings under one umbrella" so to say.

Oh, that's even more interesting, indeed.

It's been a pleasure!

[mikenz66]

Those interested in further discussion of the definitions of nāma found in Pali suttas, and the Agamas. For example, in SA298 nama is defined as the four non-rupa khandhas (including consciousness):

...
https://suttacentral.net/sa298/lzh/taisho
云何名？謂四無色陰——
受陰、想陰、行陰、識陰。
And what is nama ? Namely four non rupa khandas ~~ feeling khanda perception khanda intention khanda consciousness khanda .

might find this thread at Sutta Central interesting:

Is the list of the twelve nidanas late?
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/is ... late/19910
As you'd expect from the title, the thread is mostly about the different versions of Dependent Origination (12 links and the various others), and there is an interesting discussion of how the lists may have varied, based on Chinese translations done at different times:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/is ... e/19910/55

Going back to nama-rupa, as far as I know, the term is only used in the context of dependent origination. Are they any exceptions?


Mike

[DooDoot]

Is the list of the twelve nidanas late?

Heretic topic. The only late nidana list appears to be DN 15. As for the other lists, they are various degrees of "in detail" vs "in brief".

Counting the 4NT suttas would, of course, drastically lower the ratio of suttas with 12 nidanas to suttas with less than 12…

“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish are suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering. This is called the noble truth of suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering? With ignorance as condition, volitional activities come to be; with volitional activities as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional activities; with the cessation of volitional activities, cessation of consciousness; with the cessation of consciousness, cessation of name-and-form; with the cessation of name-and-form, cessation of the six sense bases; with the cessation of the six sense bases, cessation of contact; with the cessation of contact, cessation of feeling; with the cessation of feeling, cessation of craving; with the cessation of craving, cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of existence; with the cessation of existence, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This is called the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is just this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. This is called the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

AN 3.61

[robertk]

In the Milindapanha we have
8. Nāmarūpapaṭisandahanapañho

8 . Rāā āha '' bhante nāgasena, yaṃ panetaṃ brūsi 'nāmarūpa'nti, tattha katamaṃ nāmaṃ, katamaṃ rūpa''nti. '' Yaṃ tattha, mahārāja, oḷārikaṃ, etaṃ rūpaṃ, ye tattha sukhumā cittacetasika dhamma, etaṃ nāma '' nti. '' Bhante nāgasena, kena kāraṇena nāmaṃ yeva na paṭisandahati, rūpaṃ yeva vā''ti? '' Aññamaññūpanissitā, mahārāja, ete dhammā ekatova uppajjantī ''ti.

'' Opammaṃ karohī ''ti. '' Yathā, mahārāja, kukkuṭiyā kalalaṃ na bhaveyya, aṇḍampi na bhaveyya, yañca tattha kalalaṃ, yañca aṇḍaṃ, ubhopete aññamaññūpanissitā, ekatova nesaṃ uppatti hoti. Evameva kho, mahārāja, yadi tattha nāmaṃ na bhaveyya, rūpampi na bhaveyya, yañceva tattha nāmaṃ, yañceva rūpaṃ, ubhopete aññamaññūpanissitā, ekatova nesaṃ uppatti hoti. Evametaṃ dighamaddhānaṃ sandhāvita''nti.

'' Kallosi, bhante nāgasenā ''.

8. King Milinda said: “O Venerable Nagasena, you were talking
just now of the Mental and Physical Phenomena. Of these two,
what does Mental Phenomena (nama) mean and what Physical
Phenomena (rupa) mean?”

“Whatever of these two, O King, is gross and obvious therein,
that is Physical phenomena or corporeality (rupa); and whatever is
subtle therein, comprising consciousness (citta) and mental
concomitants (cetasika), that is Mental Phenomenon.” (So explained
the Elder.)

“Why is it, O Venerable Nagasena, that each one of the
Mental Phenomenon or Physical Phenomenon is not reborn
exclusively?” (So asked the king.)

“These Mental and Physical Phenomena, O King, (as Mind
Body complex) are inter-dependent and co-existent and as such
spring up (inseparably) together as one.”

“Give me, O Venerable One, an illustration.” (So asked the

king.)

“If, in a hen, O King, an embryonic nucleus (kalalan) is
absent, the egg-formation (andham) will also be absent; for both of
them are inter-dependent and co-existent. Their springing up
(inseparably) together as one is obvious. Just so, O King, these
Mental and Physical Phenomena (nama-rupa) (as Mind Body
complex), being inter-dependent and co-existent, their springing up
(inseparably) together as one is also obvious. For a long time have
these Mental and Physical Phenomena (as Mind-Body complex)
been hurrying and hastening (through the Round of Rebirths).” (So
explained the Elder.)

“Very reasonable, O Venerable Nagasena!” (Thus said the king.

[Coëmgenu]

In Vajrayana, refuge is taken in "the Lama, Buddha, Dharma, & Sangha". The lama (guru) comes first.

The version I am familiar with has the three jewels re-interpreted as aspects of the Guru rather than the Guru being a fourth refuge. It goes something like, if I'm not mistaken:

Refuge in the Samgha is refuge in the body of the Guru. Refuge in the Dharma is refuge in the Guru's speech. Refuge in the Buddha is refuge in the mind of the Guru.

Buddha - Mind
Dharma - Speech
Samgha - Body

[form]

The question is which group should consciousness suppose to be , nama or rupa ?

Either you didn't read the sutta quotes or you did not understand them. They say that consciousness isn't categorized under nama-rupa.

I did read , but i just read that someone saids according to sa 298 , the nama includes feeling perception intention consciousness , so , now we have two version .


https://suttacentral.net/sa298/lzh/taisho

云何名？謂四無色陰——
受陰、想陰、行陰、識陰。
And what is nama ? Namely four non rupa khandas ~~ feeling khanda perception khanda intention khanda consciousness khanda .

Right intention in 8FP is also known as Right volition? Where sis the word attention in the pali translation went to in the Chinese translation?