Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

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sentinel
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Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by sentinel »

Did the Buddha says anything of teaching and propagating wrong dhamma or misleading dhamma would result in bad kamma ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:58 pm Did the Buddha says anything of teaching and propagating wrong dhamma or misleading dhamma would result in bad kamma ?
Yes. On nearly every occasion when a bhikkhu disciple does this the Buddha tells him that his action will accumulate much demerit (bahuṃ apuññaṃ) for him.
"But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp of the Dhamma, have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm and suffering."
MN 22.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by dhammacoustic »

(...) He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
a slanderer of noble ones goes to hell (...)

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sentinel
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:30 pm
sentinel wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:58 pm Did the Buddha says anything of teaching and propagating wrong dhamma or misleading dhamma would result in bad kamma ?
Yes. On nearly every occasion when a bhikkhu disciple does this the Buddha tells him that his action will accumulate much demerit (bahuṃ apuññaṃ) for him.
"But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp of the Dhamma, have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm and suffering."
MN 22.
Bhante , how do one account if it is wrong grasp or right grasp at all ? For eg , if you explain suffering in 1st noble truth does not include sickness whereas probably that understanding is wrong ?!
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DooDoot
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am if you explain suffering in 1st noble truth does not include sickness whereas probably that understanding is wrong ?!
according to literal sutta, in 1st noble truth, the buddha summarised all dukkha as upadana. therefore, it seems sickness is dukkha when there is attachment. when body of buddha was sick, obviously buddha did not fret, worry, moan & suffer about the sickness
Now, how is one afflicted in body & afflicted in mind? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.

And how is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind? There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is not seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.

SN 22.1
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sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 amFor eg , if you explain suffering in 1st noble truth does not include sickness whereas probably that understanding is wrong ?!
How will you ever overcome sickness? :shrug:
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Pascal2
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Pascal2 »

If there are two or more different translations or texts for the same passage of the suttas how do we come to know which is the "right" one?
Putting our own opinions before facts is the root of all fanaticism?
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Pascal2 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:58 am If there are two or more different translations or texts for the same passage of the suttas how do we come to know which is the "right" one?
The method is given in the Four Great References of the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta. In brief, one needs to have a thorough knowledge of the Tipaṭaka to decide whether something fits in with it or not.

As the saying goes: “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”

See the Dunning-Kruger Effect about cognitive bias.
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am Bhante , how do one account if it is wrong grasp or right grasp at all ? For eg , if you explain suffering in 1st noble truth does not include sickness whereas probably that understanding is wrong ?!
I guess you're alluding to the fact that some MSS include 'sickness' in suttas defining the first noble truth and some don't.

If I myself were ever in any doubt as to what belongs and what doesn't belong in each of the four ariyasaccas, my way of allaying the doubt would be to consult those two hermeneutical masterpieces, the Nettipakaraṇa and Peṭakopadesa.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Pascal2
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Pascal2 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:19 am
Pascal2 wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:58 am If there are two or more different translations or texts for the same passage of the suttas how do we come to know which is the "right" one?
The method is given in the Four Great References of the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta. In brief, one needs to have a thorough knowledge of the Tipaṭaka to decide whether something fits in with it or not.

As the saying goes: “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”

See the Dunning-Kruger Effect about cognitive bias.
This may not explain about how we choose about two translations which albeit different, for some reasons, seem to both fit the body of knowledge of the Tipitaka.
Let alone that the whole idea of deciding whether "something sits in with it or not" is at the end a personal decision, and therefore prone to be an erroneous one.
Putting our own opinions before facts is the root of all fanaticism?
sentinel
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:52 am
sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:17 am Bhante , how do one account if it is wrong grasp or right grasp at all ? For eg , if you explain suffering in 1st noble truth does not include sickness whereas probably that understanding is wrong ?!
I guess you're alluding to the fact that some MSS include 'sickness' in suttas defining the first noble truth and some don't.

If I myself were ever in any doubt as to what belongs and what doesn't belong in each of the four ariyasaccas, my way of allaying the doubt would be to consult those two hermeneutical masterpieces, the Nettipakaraṇa and Peṭakopadesa.
So in your opinion , what would be the difference if it does not include sickness ?
Do you think , aging and death still something that human beings regarded as painful !
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

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sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:57 pmSo in your opinion , what would be the difference if it does not include sickness?
The various words for sickness (byādhi, roga, gilana, ātaṅka, gelañña, āmaya, etc.) occur more than two thousand times in the Canon. So clearly it's no minor theme and an exposition of the Dhamma that leaves it out of account will probably be missing something important.
sentinel wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:57 pmDo you think, aging and death still something that human beings regarded as painful!
Yes.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Bundokji
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Bundokji »

If two bhikkhus offer different interpretations in relation to the first precept, would that necessarily make one of them disseminating a wrong dhamma?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by santa100 »

Pascal2 wrote:This may not explain about how we choose about two translations which albeit different, for some reasons, seem to both fit the body of knowledge of the Tipitaka.
Let alone that the whole idea of deciding whether "something sits in with it or not" is at the end a personal decision, and therefore prone to be an erroneous one.
In that particular case, one can always plays it safe by providing sources/references of both accounts, then provides one's take on which one one thinks might be the better choice through further backup literatures and one's own reasoning, so that others might have a chance to agree or refute with their own refs. and reasoning. The key is to provide all the sources and refs, state one's opinion with supporting evidences, and let the audience decide what to believe for themselves.
sentinel
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by sentinel »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:38 pm
The various words for sickness (byādhi, roga, gilana, ātaṅka, gelañña, āmaya, etc.) occur more than two thousand times in the Canon. So clearly it's no minor theme and an exposition of the Dhamma that leaves it out of account will probably be missing something important.
Bhante , i guess in this case , it appear there are 2 different exposition on noble truth of suffering where one of it include sickness whereby the other one exclude sickness , so who is disseminating wrong dhamma and there seems to be no consensus , how then is it possible to determine for ourself we are propagating right dhamma hence not resulting in bad kamma ?!
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Dhammanando
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Re: Kamma of disseminating wrong dhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

Bundokji wrote: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:51 pm If two bhikkhus offer different interpretations in relation to the first precept, would that necessarily make one of them disseminating a wrong dhamma?
Not necessarily, for what they offer might be different but not mutually contradictory. For example, an exposition of the first precept using the Abhidhamma method will look rather different to one using the Sutta method.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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