Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

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Wizard in the Forest
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Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

In the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta the Buddha is said to have gone into the Jhānā in ascending and descending order up from the first to the formless Jhānā and then descending back to the first and rising back to the fourth.

Is cultivation of Jhāna only possible to attain in ascending and descending order or can one go to a specific Jhāna without having to go through and switch from one to another.

If this is not possible can I have more examples of the descending order of the Jhānā being done in the Suttas, as the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta seems to be the only one I remember this happening in and I wanted to know if it was specifically only a thing the Buddha can do.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Pondera »

It’s not like a dial. It’s like a series of switches. If you know how to turn the various switches on, then you can skip to whatever jhana you like.

Want The Realm of Naught? Just merge with it. It’s already out there. All you have to do is place your self in it with your will power (for example).
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Ok, do you have doctrinal support from the suttas so I can study it and parse over it?

While I might never have experience with your Meditation experience we share the same teacher (the Buddha) who gave out his instructions in the Dhamma Vinaya and in the Abhidhamma, and really any support from the Suttas Vinaya and Abhidhamma teachings would all be acceptable since I can say the support for it is there. But I am looking for doctrinal support.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I'm glad you are able to attain Jhāna at will and able to switch like that, it's pretty rad.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

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Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:01 am Ok, do you have doctrinal support from the suttas so I can study it and parse over it?

While I might never have experience with your Meditation experience we share the same teacher (the Buddha) who gave out his instructions in the Dhamma Vinaya and in the Abhidhamma, and really any support from the Suttas Vinaya and Abhidhamma teachings would all be acceptable since I can say the support for it is there. But I am looking for doctrinal support.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I'm glad you are able to attain Jhāna at will and able to switch like that, it's pretty rad.
Buddhaghosa’s “Path of Purification” is the only place I specifically recall hearing that a practitioner should be able to skip jhanas (after mastering them).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

Best to open this PDF in some kind of book reader. It’s a long treatise. It’s Abhidhamma. I wish I could tell you exactly where the skipping part is. I know it’s in the “Concentration” section of the book. Might be worth the read anyway. Best of luck.

I don’t honestly know if I practice jhana. Or what “kind” of jhana I use.

I regularly find myself feeling joy; rapture; tranquility; and bliss - in that order (ie. the correct order described in the suttas).

From bliss I develop samadhi. And then vipasanna follows from there.

As I say. I’ve run the whole gambit and I have a conceptual framework which aligns with the suttas. But I’m so far removed from any tradition or lineage that I would hesitate to call my practice “jhana”. Whatever it is, I use it and I’m happy with it. :)
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:30 am
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:01 am Ok, do you have doctrinal support from the suttas so I can study it and parse over it?

While I might never have experience with your Meditation experience we share the same teacher (the Buddha) who gave out his instructions in the Dhamma Vinaya and in the Abhidhamma, and really any support from the Suttas Vinaya and Abhidhamma teachings would all be acceptable since I can say the support for it is there. But I am looking for doctrinal support.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I'm glad you are able to attain Jhāna at will and able to switch like that, it's pretty rad.
Buddhaghosa’s “Path of Purification” is the only place I specifically recall hearing that a practitioner should be able to skip jhanas (after mastering them).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

Best to open this PDF in some kind of book reader. It’s a long treatise. It’s Abhidhamma. I wish I could tell you exactly where the skipping part is. I know it’s in the “Concentration” section of the book. Might be worth the read anyway. Best of luck.

I don’t honestly know if I practice jhana. Or what “kind” of jhana I use.

I regularly find myself feeling joy; rapture; tranquility; and bliss - in that order (ie. the correct order described in the suttas).

From bliss I develop samadhi. And then vipasanna follows from there.

As I say. I’ve run the whole gambit and I have a conceptual framework which aligns with the suttas. But I’m so far removed from any tradition or lineage that I would hesitate to call my practice “jhana”. Whatever it is, I use it and I’m happy with it. :)
skip jhana means moving quicky very fast through unwanted jhanas and remaining long time in jhana of interest. if someone want to go 3rd and remain there, he will go to 1st and 2nd less than 2 or 3 seconds and remain in third. that 2 or 3 second will be not significant it looks as if he went 3rd straight. I also recall someone saying that one can enter 5th directly without 1-4th and 5th will be basis for 5-9th jhaana however i am yet to validate this claim.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:25 am
Pondera wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:30 am
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:01 am Ok, do you have doctrinal support from the suttas so I can study it and parse over it?

While I might never have experience with your Meditation experience we share the same teacher (the Buddha) who gave out his instructions in the Dhamma Vinaya and in the Abhidhamma, and really any support from the Suttas Vinaya and Abhidhamma teachings would all be acceptable since I can say the support for it is there. But I am looking for doctrinal support.

Thanks for sharing your experience though, I'm glad you are able to attain Jhāna at will and able to switch like that, it's pretty rad.
Buddhaghosa’s “Path of Purification” is the only place I specifically recall hearing that a practitioner should be able to skip jhanas (after mastering them).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

Best to open this PDF in some kind of book reader. It’s a long treatise. It’s Abhidhamma. I wish I could tell you exactly where the skipping part is. I know it’s in the “Concentration” section of the book. Might be worth the read anyway. Best of luck.

I don’t honestly know if I practice jhana. Or what “kind” of jhana I use.

I regularly find myself feeling joy; rapture; tranquility; and bliss - in that order (ie. the correct order described in the suttas).

From bliss I develop samadhi. And then vipasanna follows from there.

As I say. I’ve run the whole gambit and I have a conceptual framework which aligns with the suttas. But I’m so far removed from any tradition or lineage that I would hesitate to call my practice “jhana”. Whatever it is, I use it and I’m happy with it. :)
skip jhana means moving quicky very fast through unwanted jhanas and remaining long time in jhana of interest. if someone want to go 3rd and remain there, he will go to 1st and 2nd less than 2 or 3 seconds and remain in third. that 2 or 3 second will be not significant it looks as if he went 3rd straight. I also recall someone saying that one can enter 5th directly without 1-4th and 5th will be basis for 5-9th jhaana however i am yet to validate this claim.
That’s not how Buddhaghosa describes it.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Is there any other canonical source for descending and will switching Jhāna you all know of in the Suttas?
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by SteRo »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:55 pm Is there any other canonical source for descending and will switching Jhāna you all know of in the Suttas?
I only know a non-Theravada source.

But can you give precise reference in the Mahā Parinibbāna Sutta? It is a very long sutta, where can it be found in this sutta?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Ask and you shall receive.

That's the example in the Suttas of being able to enter the Jhānā in descending order, but I don't know of any where one goes directly to a Jhāna without entering into the preceding or following one.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by SteRo »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:03 pm Ask and you shall receive.

That's the example in the Suttas of being able to enter the Jhānā in descending order, but I don't know of any where one goes directly to a Jhāna without entering into the preceding or following one.
Interesting, thanks! Great to have that instance of descending order. So far I only have come across the standard ascending order in the suttas.

However there are suttas which don't explicitly mention preceding jhana states and which might therefore also be interpreted as referring to direct access: The neither-pleasant-nor-painful awareness-release mentioned in MN43. And the different "Imperturbables" in MN106.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

I do like the idea that one can cycle forwards and backwards in Jhāna and if they can be done right away in circumstances you need might be important.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by SteRo »

I think it is telling that it is the Buddha who has these ascending and descending absorptions. If one would conceive of these as a dexterity attained through practice that might be a misconception. More appropriate might be to conceive of these as a manifestation of the Buddha's realizations.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

I am sure this is part of it, but I wanted to see if there's any Canonical evidence that it can be done by anyone else.
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Re: Evidence for a specific kind of Jhāna Practice

Post by Srilankaputra »

Wizard in the Forest wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:22 am Is cultivation of Jhāna only possible to attain in ascending and descending order or can one go to a specific Jhāna without having to go through and switch from one to another.
From the Nettippakarana;
Sabbo samādhi ñāṇamūlako ñāṇapubbaṅgamo ñāṇānuparivatti.
I believe those who have sufficiently developed pañña indriya can attain whatever jhana they wish in whichever order.

Tañhi, bhikkhu, musā yaṃ mosadhammaṃ, taṃ saccaṃ yaṃ amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ.

Tasmā evaṃ samannāgato bhikkhu iminā 
paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena samannāgato hoti.

Etañhi, bhikkhu, paramaṃ ariyasaccaṃ yadidaṃ

amosadhammaṃ nibbānaṃ
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