What is Gandhabba ?

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sentinel
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What is Gandhabba ?

Post by sentinel »

What is gandhabba in your opinion ?
Below are early text that mentioned about gandhabba (or antarabhava or bardo) and also reference from Mahayana texts if one is interested .

Ps .
Fyi Gandhabba in chinese is 中陰(zhong yin)
Discourse with Assalāyana

https://suttacentral.net/mn93/en/horner

But do you, sirs, know how there is conception?’
‘We do know, sir, how there is conception. There is here a coitus of the parents, it is the mother’s season and the gandhabba is present; it is on the conjunction of these three things that there is conception.’
‘But do you, sirs, know whether that gandhabba is a noble or brahman or merchant or worker?’
‘We do not know, sir, whether that gandhabba is a noble or a brahman or a merchant or a worker.’
‘This being so, do you know, sirs, who you are?’
‘This being so, sir, we do not know who we are .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


佛說灌頂隨願往生十方淨土經卷第十一

東晉天竺三藏帛尸梨蜜多羅譯

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T21n1331_011

[0529c15] 普廣菩薩復白佛言。若四眾男女。若命未終若已終者。我今當勸修諸福業。得生十方諸佛剎也。佛言善哉普廣菩薩摩訶薩。隨意教導十方人也。普廣菩薩語四輩言。若人臨終未終之日。當為燒香然燈續明。於塔寺中表剎之上。懸命過幡轉讀尊經竟三七日。所以然者命終之人。在中陰中身如小兒。罪福未定應為修福。


大寶積經卷第五十五

大唐三藏菩提流志奉 詔譯

佛為阿難說處胎會第十三

https://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T11n0310_055

[0322a24] 爾時世尊告阿難言:「若有眾生欲入胎時,因緣具足便得受身,若不具足則不受身。云何名為緣不具足?所謂父母起愛染心,中陰現前求受生處,然此父母赤白和合或前或後而不俱時,復於身中各有諸患,若如是者則不入胎。
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings,

From my reading of Ven. Analayo and the Agama parallels it stands for a being about to be born:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf

Some say it just means “semen” but then the question arises as to why the Buddha didn’t just say the Pali equivalent of semen, like what’s found in the Vinaya?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sentinel
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by sentinel »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:07 pm Greetings,

From my reading of Ven. Analayo and the Agama parallels it stands for a being about to be born:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf

Some say it just means “semen”, but then the question arises as to why the Buddha didn’t just say the Pali equivalent of semen, like what’s found in the Vinaya?
I havent read about Analayo link you provided and according to the early texts limited info nothing sensible can be makeout , however with what Mahayana texts portrays it make sense to me that it is some sort of fine (ethereal) body .
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form
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by form »

I ever ask Bhikkhu Bodhi on this if that means 中阴身, meaning I think is intermediate "body", he said probably.
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confusedlayman
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 8:54 pm I ever ask Bhikkhu Bodhi on this if that means 中阴身, meaning I think is intermediate "body", he said probably.
mind stream which goes from head sides to another existance where conciousness will be established when mind stream landed there. mind stream has vibration as its quality and fast movement.

in dream if u become aware u can shift ur conciousness from 3rd person to 1st person experience of dream charecter.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:07 pmSome say it just means “semen” but then the question arises as to why the Buddha didn’t just say the Pali equivalent of semen, like what’s found in the Vinaya?
My impression is there is no evidence the Buddha ever spoke MN 38 and MN 93, where the term 'gandhabba' is related to an embryo. These appear the only two places in the suttas that use the term gandhabba in such a manner. Elsewhere in the suttas, the term 'gandhabba' is used extensively with a different contextual meaning. Also, i recall there is no equivalent usage in the Vedas as in MN 38 & MN 93. Yet in MN 93, the Brahmins themselves are said to believe in the same gandhabba theory as in MN 38, which makes MN 93 questionable. As for why sperm is not used, possibly in the Buddha's time they did not view impregnation the exact way we do. We have had extensive discussions on this subject before, including presenting teachings from the Vedas.
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aspirant
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by aspirant »

Lal has posted some information regarding Gandhabba

https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/me ... -evidence/
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-Dhammapada - 380
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 10:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:07 pmSome say it just means “semen” but then the question arises as to why the Buddha didn’t just say the Pali equivalent of semen, like what’s found in the Vinaya?
My impression is there is no evidence the Buddha ever spoke MN 38 and MN 93, where the term 'gandhabba' is related to an embryo. These appear the only two places in the suttas that use the term gandhabba in such a manner. Elsewhere in the suttas, the term 'gandhabba' is used extensively with a different contextual meaning. Also, i recall there is no equivalent usage in the Vedas as in MN 38 & MN 93. Yet in MN 93, the Brahmins themselves are said to believe in the same gandhabba theory as in MN 38, which makes MN 93 questionable. As for why sperm is not used, possibly in the Buddha's time they did not view impregnation the exact way we do. We have had extensive discussions on this subject before, including presenting teachings from the Vedas.
Well sure, you can make an argument that the Buddha didn’t speak those words. Still, gandhabba seems to mean “being to be born”, regardless of who spoke them. As for sperm, I doubt that they didn’t notice that pregnancy relies upon the man ejaculating into the woman and references to sperm, or “emissions”, are made elsewhere in the canon. Most ancient societies had a concept of a man’s “seed”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
justindesilva
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by justindesilva »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 3:14 pm
DooDoot wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 10:02 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 14, 2020 2:07 pmSome say it just means “semen” but then the question arises as to why the Buddha didn’t just say the Pali equivalent of semen, like what’s found in the Vinaya?
My impression is there is no evidence the Buddha ever spoke MN 38 and MN 93, where the term 'gandhabba' is related to an embryo. These appear the only two places in the suttas that use the term gandhabba in such a manner. Elsewhere in the suttas, the term 'gandhabba' is used extensively with a different contextual meaning. Also, i recall there is no equivalent usage in the Vedas as in MN 38 & MN 93. Yet in MN 93, the Brahmins themselves are said to believe in the same gandhabba theory as in MN 38, which makes MN 93 questionable. As for why sperm is not used, possibly in the Buddha's time they did not view impregnation the exact way we do. We have had extensive discussions on this subject before, including presenting teachings from the Vedas.
Well sure, you can make an argument that the Buddha didn’t speak those words. Still, gandhabba seems to mean “being to be born”, regardless of who spoke them. As for sperm, I doubt that they didn’t notice that pregnancy relies upon the man ejaculating into the woman and references to sperm, or “emissions”, are made elsewhere in the canon. Most ancient societies had a concept of a man’s “seed”.
In MN 93 Assalayana sutta, the words of the budda explain about 3 people , coming together in the formation of an embryo. There is no mention of semen. The birth of life comes by the union of father, mother and gandabba. Lord budda questions from Assalayana whether he has knowledge of who the gandabba is, to which he answers in negative.
It is clear here that by gandabba what is mentioned is a Mano Kaya with a cuti citta, looking for a flesh to be fertiled.
I have heard in sermons that a cuti citta keeps looking for a suitable stage of the union of a mother and father to get established for a birth.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

If "gandhabba" is not sperm, then the Buddha considered to be necessary only the female fertility ("the woman is in her period"), and not also the male fertility. But we all know that the simple union between man and woman is not sufficient for pregnancy. So the Buddha forgot the necessary condition of sperm.

Or maybe he called it "gandhabba".

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:31 pm If "gandhabba" is not sperm, then the Buddha considered to be necessary only the female fertility ("the woman is in her period"), and not alsoalsothe the male fertility. But we all know that the simple union between man and woman is not sufficient for pregnancy. So the Buddha forgot the necessary condition of sperm.

Or maybe he called it "gandhabba".
If we assume that the passage is from the Buddha, I don’t see why he wouldn’t just refer to sperm as he does elsewhere if that’s what he meant. He very likely knew that sperm is needed. They did know a man needs to ejaculate, they just didn’t understand why. The use of “gandhabba” suggests something else. I think Ven. Analayo makes a compelling case for why it means “being about to be born” in my link above. It’s worth a read, if you haven’t already :smile:

Metta

:)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:34 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 8:31 pm If "gandhabba" is not sperm, then the Buddha considered to be necessary only the female fertility ("the woman is in her period"), and not alsoalsothe the male fertility. But we all know that the simple union between man and woman is not sufficient for pregnancy. So the Buddha forgot the necessary condition of sperm.

Or maybe he called it "gandhabba".
If we assume that the passage is from the Buddha, I don’t see why he wouldn’t just refer to sperm as he does elsewhere. The use of “gandhabba” suggests something else. I think Ven. Analayo makes a compelling case for why it means “being about to be born” in my link above. It’s worth a read, if you haven’t already :smile:

Metta

:)
The Buddha often used different terms to refer to the same thing, also names of brahmanical supernatural beings. Why using Mara instead of desire, or death, in some occasions? Same could go for gandhabba and sperm.

Anyway I repeat: if gandhabba is not sperm, then the Buddha forgot sperm as a condition for pregnancy.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92,
The Buddha often used different terms to refer to the same thing, also names of brahmanical supernatural beings. Why using Mara instead of desire, or death, in some occasions? Same could go for gandhabba and sperm.

Anyway I repeat: if gandhabba is not sperm, then the Buddha forgot sperm as a condition for pregnancy.
Indeed, but referring to deities associated with guiding beings to be born is a bit odd if he wanted to refer to sperm. My reading is that sperm isn’t left out. It’s implied by the union. I doubt the Buddha had in mind “pulling out”.
In addition to treating rebirth from the perspective of the causes
that affect the quality of the next life, the early Buddhist analysis also takes up the causes for actual conception. These are treated in the Assalāyana-sutta, a discourse that records how a Brahmin at- tempted to challenge the Buddha on the issue of caste superiority. At the end of a discussion in which the Buddha made it clear that the Brahminical belief in caste superiority is groundless, the conditions required for rebirth are listed: "The descent into the womb takes place through the junction of these three [conditions]: there is a union of mother and father, the mother is in season and the gandhabba is present."

The point of bringing up these three conditions in the Assalāyana- sutta's discussion is that it cannot be said to which caste the being belongs that is about to be born. This then forms another argument against Brahminical caste presumptions. Thus the discourse continues: "Sirs, do you know for sure if that gandhabba is [a member of the] warrior [caste], or the Brahmin [caste], or the merchant [caste], or the worker [caste]?"

What makes this passage particularly intriguing is its use of the term gandhabba. The Buddhist conception of a gandhabba appears to have its roots in the Vedic gandharva, which had the particular function of transmitting things from one world to another. Should we then understand the gandhabba in the Assalāyana-sutta to be similar to Yama in the Devadūta-sutta, in the sense that while Yama presides over rebirth in hell, the gandhabba presides over human conception? Yet, according to the commentary to the Assalāyana-sutta, the gandhabba rather stands for the being to be reborn. In fact, the Vedic gandharva as a 'god of transfer' was at times identified with what was under his custody. This sense would seem to be more appropriate to the present context, since the inquiry after the caste of the gandhabba would be meaningful only if it refers to the being to be reborn, not to a god that presides over conception. Thus, though the Vedic concept of a 'god of transfer' helps to explain how the gandhabba would have come to be associated with the transition from one life to another, in its Buddhist usage the term seems to have lost this connotation and appears to stand merely for the being about to be reborn.

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf
Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?’

“‘Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.’

“‘But do you know for sure whether the gandhabba is a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker?’

“‘No, master.’

“‘That being the case, do you know who you are?’

“‘That being the case, master, we don’t know who we are.’
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN93.html

Personally I’m convinced that it refers to “being about to be born”. That makes for a better reading than sperm, which wouldn’t make much sense when reading this:

“But do you know for sure whether the gandhabba is a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker?’“

Metta

:)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri May 15, 2020 9:01 pm AlexBrains92,
The Buddha often used different terms to refer to the same thing, also names of brahmanical supernatural beings. Why using Mara instead of desire, or death, in some occasions? Same could go for gandhabba and sperm.

Anyway I repeat: if gandhabba is not sperm, then the Buddha forgot sperm as a condition for pregnancy.
Indeed, but referring to deities associated with guiding beings to be born is a bit odd if he wanted to refer to sperm. My reading is that sperm isn’t left out. It’s implied by the union. I doubt the Buddha had in mind “pulling out”.
In addition to treating rebirth from the perspective of the causes
that affect the quality of the next life, the early Buddhist analysis also takes up the causes for actual conception. These are treated in the Assalāyana-sutta, a discourse that records how a Brahmin at- tempted to challenge the Buddha on the issue of caste superiority. At the end of a discussion in which the Buddha made it clear that the Brahminical belief in caste superiority is groundless, the conditions required for rebirth are listed: "The descent into the womb takes place through the junction of these three [conditions]: there is a union of mother and father, the mother is in season and the gandhabba is present."

The point of bringing up these three conditions in the Assalāyana- sutta's discussion is that it cannot be said to which caste the being belongs that is about to be born. This then forms another argument against Brahminical caste presumptions. Thus the discourse continues: "Sirs, do you know for sure if that gandhabba is [a member of the] warrior [caste], or the Brahmin [caste], or the merchant [caste], or the worker [caste]?"

What makes this passage particularly intriguing is its use of the term gandhabba. The Buddhist conception of a gandhabba appears to have its roots in the Vedic gandharva, which had the particular function of transmitting things from one world to another. Should we then understand the gandhabba in the Assalāyana-sutta to be similar to Yama in the Devadūta-sutta, in the sense that while Yama presides over rebirth in hell, the gandhabba presides over human conception? Yet, according to the commentary to the Assalāyana-sutta, the gandhabba rather stands for the being to be reborn. In fact, the Vedic gandharva as a 'god of transfer' was at times identified with what was under his custody. This sense would seem to be more appropriate to the present context, since the inquiry after the caste of the gandhabba would be meaningful only if it refers to the being to be reborn, not to a god that presides over conception. Thus, though the Vedic concept of a 'god of transfer' helps to explain how the gandhabba would have come to be associated with the transition from one life to another, in its Buddhist usage the term seems to have lost this connotation and appears to stand merely for the being about to be reborn.

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... dhabba.pdf
Do you know how there is the descent of an embryo?’

“‘Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.’

“‘But do you know for sure whether the gandhabba is a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker?’

“‘No, master.’

“‘That being the case, do you know who you are?’

“‘That being the case, master, we don’t know who we are.’
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN93.html

Personally I’m convinced that it refers to “being about to be born”. That makes for a better reading than sperm, which wouldn’t make much sense when reading this:

“But do you know for sure whether the gandhabba is a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker?’“

Metta

:)
Well, sperm will eventually became a warrior, a brahman... :D
What is a "being about to be born", exactly? And how can we observe it? This sounds very faith-based... for this reason "sperm" makes more sense to me.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What is Gandhabba ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hi AlexBrains92,
Well, sperm will eventually became a warrior, a brahman... :D
What is a "being about to be born", exactly? And how can we observe it? This sounds very faith-based... for this reason "sperm" makes more sense to me.
Indeed but they knew that sperm isn’t a being. When they want to refer to the being to be they say “gandhabba”. How do the Brahmins know that this gandhabba will be noble or not? Notice they don’t use the word “gabbha” which is translated above as “embryo” when referring to the being to be, which if they were strictly limiting themselves to the material contents of the womb would make more sense. Gandhabba clearly means “being” in its abstract non-material sense, at least to me.
What is a "being about to be born", exactly? And how can we observe it? This sounds very faith-based
My understanding is that a being with a tainted mind who is about to die is a being about to be born. Can we observe that scientifically? Not via any method I’m aware of. Does that mean it doesn’t happen? No. Does that mean it does happen? No. Can it be verified via other means? Apparently via the iddhis. Does that make it a faith based belief for someone without the iddhis? Yes. Is saddha part of the path taught by the Buddha? Yes. Is the gandhabba a central concept in the Dhamma? Possibly for some.

Metta

:)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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