is slavery bad

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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salayatananirodha
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is slavery bad

Post by salayatananirodha »

ancient india had slavery, and the buddha AFAIK never explicitly condemned it. cite sources, if possible.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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cappuccino
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by cappuccino »

slaves to craving …
they swell the terrible charnel ground,
they grab at further becoming.

Upakkilesa Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by Ceisiwr »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:55 pm ancient india had slavery, and the buddha AFAIK never explicitly condemned it. cite sources, if possible.
He said it was wrong livelihood. Yes it’s bad.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by Ceisiwr »

“Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

“These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.177/en/thanissaro

Alternative translation:
“Mendicants, a lay follower should not engage in these five trades. What five? Trade in weapons, living creatures, meat, intoxicants, and poisons. A lay follower should not engage in these five trades.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.177/en/sujato
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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SDC
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by SDC »

It was practiced during that time in India and he said to treat them well. I do not believe they were bought and sold however. We need a historian here!
SN 5.42 wrote:Bhikkhus, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of (1) his mother and father, (2) his wife and children, (3) his slaves, workers, and servants, (4) his friends and companions, and (5) ascetics and brahmins. Just as a great rain cloud, nurturing all the crops, appears for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people, so too, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of his mother and father … ascetics and brahmins.”
...
The Buddha did not arise to make the world better. The Path purifies the individual, the extent to which the world improves as a result is incidental and would only last as long as the knowledge of those individuals remain available to others.
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confusedlayman
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by confusedlayman »

SDC wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:46 pm It was practiced during that time in India and he said to treat them well. I do not believe they were bought and sold however. We need a historian here!
SN 5.42 wrote:Bhikkhus, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of (1) his mother and father, (2) his wife and children, (3) his slaves, workers, and servants, (4) his friends and companions, and (5) ascetics and brahmins. Just as a great rain cloud, nurturing all the crops, appears for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people, so too, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of his mother and father … ascetics and brahmins.”
...
The Buddha did not arise to make the world better. The Path purifies the individual, the extent to which the world improves as a result is incidental and would only last as long as the knowledge of those individuals remain available to others.
slavery means poor people work for rich so they dont die in hunger and poverty...

Slave poor were treated with food, dress and shelter so its not like typical slave in USA... in india slavery means servents sleep in master home instead of going back to their own home whcih they dont have.

Its a method for slave to survive just by doing house hold chores. This slavery means they cant enter kitchen or master bedroom where house owner lives. Its not like today world slave where u can sell or rent..
dont think
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SDC
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:33 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:46 pm It was practiced during that time in India and he said to treat them well. I do not believe they were bought and sold however. We need a historian here!
SN 5.42 wrote:Bhikkhus, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of (1) his mother and father, (2) his wife and children, (3) his slaves, workers, and servants, (4) his friends and companions, and (5) ascetics and brahmins. Just as a great rain cloud, nurturing all the crops, appears for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people, so too, when a good person is born in a family, it is for the good, welfare, and happiness of many people. It is for the good, welfare, and happiness of his mother and father … ascetics and brahmins.”
...
The Buddha did not arise to make the world better. The Path purifies the individual, the extent to which the world improves as a result is incidental and would only last as long as the knowledge of those individuals remain available to others.
slavery means poor people work for rich so they dont die in hunger and poverty...

Slave poor were treated with food, dress and shelter so its not like typical slave in USA... in india slavery means servents sleep in master home instead of going back to their own home whcih they dont have.

Its a method for slave to survive just by doing house hold chores. This slavery means they cant enter kitchen or master bedroom where house owner lives. Its not like today world slave where u can sell or rent..
Thanks for the information. I recall reading that it was much different than the Colonial version we saw in the Americas.
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Slavery is a corrupting practice. It depends on renouncement of the Holy Life, renouncement of renouncement itself.

May every life have the requisites, full stop. Why shouldn't they?
- MettaDevPrac
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SDC
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by SDC »

MettaDevPrac wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:14 pm Slavery is a corrupting practice. It depends on renouncement of the Holy Life, renouncement of renouncement itself.

May every life have the requisites, full stop. Why shouldn't they?
Doesn't seem as though the slave class were prohibited from ordaining in ancient India, which is the time period being discussed in this thread.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SDC wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:15 pmDoesn't seem as though the slave class were prohibited from ordaining in ancient India, which is the time period being discussed in this thread.
They were not allowed to ordain, unless permitted by their owner. In the examination of a candidate before ordination one of the questions is: “Are you a free man? (Bhujissosi?)”

Anāthapiṇḍika freed a slave woman because she was able to persuade the Blessed One to remain longer at Sāvatthi.
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DooDoot
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by DooDoot »

In Thailand, I recall a senior monk saying as a child his family had a slave who loved him as much as his mother. But what is much worse than that is being a slave to defilement
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SDC
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by SDC »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:05 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:15 pmDoesn't seem as though the slave class were prohibited from ordaining in ancient India, which is the time period being discussed in this thread.
They were not allowed to ordain, unless permitted by their owner. In the examination of a candidate before ordination one of the questions is: “Are you a free man? (Bhujissosi?)”
This is why I always use "seem" when I suspect I'm speaking out of turn...many thanks for the clarification, Bhante.
MettaDevPrac
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:05 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:15 pmDoesn't seem as though the slave class were prohibited from ordaining in ancient India, which is the time period being discussed in this thread.
They were not allowed to ordain, unless permitted by their owner. In the examination of a candidate before ordination one of the questions is: “Are you a free man? (Bhujissosi?)”

Anāthapiṇḍika freed a slave woman because she was able to persuade the Blessed One to remain longer at Sāvatthi.
I imagine a slaveowner or slavetrader would need to give that up to be considered for ordination.

But I was more thinking that eradicating the mental, verbal and bodily habits of "having" slaves would be a challenge, as would of course the habits of havng "been" a slave. The habits are corrupt, corrupting.

May all get the training, support, and habits which lead to the path of liberation.
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SarathW
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by SarathW »

What is the definition of slavery.
You find slavery and slave trade everywhere. (employment agencies)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: is slavery bad

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:19 am What is the definition of slavery.
You find slavery and slave trade everywhere. (employment agencies)
slave
[ sleyv ]
noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
It's not necessarily someone who works for low wages. An important part of the definition (#1 above) is being the property of another. That person works, typically for housing and food only, no wages and no salary. A person who makes low wages can look for other employment, if available. A slave cannot and must work for his master until death (unless he is freed in some manner, by sale or laws passed).
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