Clinging

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simsapa
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Clinging

Post by simsapa »

So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Clinging

Post by Sam Vara »

simsapa wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
The test might be whether or not they lead to suffering, not whether we consider them essential or unavoidable.
simsapa
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Re: Clinging

Post by simsapa »

OK, The test might be whether or not they lead to suffering, not whether we consider them essential or unavoidable.
Source for this?
2600htz
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Re: Clinging

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

The easiest way to determine if you are clinging to something is to check for repetitive thoughts .
Once you are attached to something, the mind becomes glued to that object, and it starts rambling about the subject.

For example, you can eat vegetables every day, but if you are not attached to that, you will just eat, enjoy the moment, and never think about vegetables ever again.

If someone is attached to eating vegetables, it will eat the vegetables, and then spend the rest of the day fantasizing about the next time he eats salad, it will have repetitive thoughts about tomatoes, etc.

Regards.
simsapa
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Re: Clinging

Post by simsapa »

Let's say someone is starving... are they clinging when they think all the time about food?
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Re: Clinging

Post by whynotme »

simsapa wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
My 2 cents

If more than enough, then it is. For example, first, you think harvest vegetables for dinning, that is for its need. Then, a moment of thought and you harvest more to store for the next day. That is more than enough of the need.

You think you make money for living, that is a good and right intention. But most ppl do not stop right there, at the enough. They always find a reason for more, to make more than the first intention, to save money to assure your life.

But even to save money for your life is a good intention. Let say you want to save 100k, and you want to make more than that, again, which is more than enough.

Enough is usefulness. More than usefulness is greed, because you dont need that, why hold it? Usefulness is not greed, but more than that is greed. And often ppl will find a reason for the surplussed, this is where the circle of greed start. Each time you want more than enough, and find a new reason, so the mind is familiar with this way of reasoning. A reason for the waste.

In any situation, the part you make more than enough is always a waste, there is no usefulness in it. But human mind always find a reason for this waste, so they become a slave for the goal, never content in anything. Its not based on quantity, but more than enough is wrong. For a man, saving 100k is enough, but for a family, 400k is enough. For a large project, 1M is enough.. More than enough, what are you doing with that? You only eat 3 meals a day, what is the point of having 10 cars, 5 houses? It is not the actual possession, but the possessive thought. If you do business then buying 10 houses is right, but for living, its more than enough. But what if you inherited 10 houses? The point is your possessive thought and attitude, aiming for more than enough, which is greed.

Greed is more than usefulness. If it is useful then even 100B is right, if it is not useful, then a dollar is more than enough. And the mind is always tricky in persuading the fake usefulness, which is ignorance.

Anyway, I agree with what 2600htz said above. When someone is starving and think about food all the time, that is clinging, clinging to hunger and life. It is a basic clinging, it is very hard to overcome, but it is still clinging. If you dont cling to life then even with death penalty, you dont think much about it.
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SDC
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Re: Clinging

Post by SDC »

simsapa wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
To examine on a case by case basis would imply the direct presence of "desire and lust", but that holding/clinging is with respect to the aggregates, it is the assumption towards those five heaps. The fact that you would continue to manage and tend to the desire to eat and desire to maintain your life is the result of upādāna already being there in a far more fundamental way.
MN 44 wrote:The five clinging aggregates, friend Visākha, are not just clinging; but neither is there clinging apart from the five clinging aggregates. That, friend Visākha, in the five clinging aggregates which is desire-&-lust, that clinging is therein.
"As fruits fall from the tree, so people too, both young and old, fall when this body breaks." - Raṭṭhapāla (MN 82)
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sunnat
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Re: Clinging

Post by sunnat »

When directly practicing vipassana (maintaining awareness of anicca, kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, dhammanupassana) that which is clung to is let go of. In letting go and recognising whatever phenomena as not-self knowledge of having clung arises.
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khemarato.bhikkhu
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Re: Clinging

Post by khemarato.bhikkhu »

Here is Bhikkhu Analayo's definition of taṇhā

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hambur ... /tanha.pdf
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pegembara
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Re: Clinging

Post by pegembara »

simsapa wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:39 am Let's say someone is starving... are they clinging when they think all the time about food?
Everyone apart from an arahant has some degree of clinging. One of the most fundamental being clinging to life or existence (bhava tanha). This struggle for survival, of course, leads to mental suffering.
Ron Leifer states: "The desire for life is present in the body at birth, in its homeostatic, hormonal, and reflexive mechanisms... At the more subtle level of ego, the desire for life is the ego's striving to establish itself, to solidify itself, to gain a secure foothold, to prevail and dominate, and so to enjoy the sensuous delights of the phenomenal world. The desire for life manifests itself in all of ego's selfish, ambitious strivings..."

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/bhavatanha
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Clinging

Post by SteRo »

simsapa wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
E.g. asking questions is a manifestation of clinging. As long as there is the conceit 'I am' countless variants of clinging arise.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
Srilankaputra
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Re: Clinging

Post by Srilankaputra »

If I remember correctly, upadanakkhandhas are likened to a burden or bearing a burden. Tanha to picking up the burden. Magga to putting down the burden. Nibbana to burdenlesness.

If it feels like a encumbrance, mental baggage, fixation, inability to put aside it might be clinging.

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Zdenek
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Re: Clinging

Post by Zdenek »

And how about clinging to Buddha/Buddhism?
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Re: Clinging

Post by SteRo »

Zdenek wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:52 am And how about clinging to Buddha/Buddhism?
Clinging is clinging but in Theravada not all forms of clinging are considered to be obstructive. See chanda vs tanha
Last edited by SteRo on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
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one_awakening
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Re: Clinging

Post by one_awakening »

simsapa wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:11 pm So how can I determine if I am clinging to something? If I need to harvest vegetables to eat a meal, is that need for the vegetables a form of clinging? What about making money so that I don't end up homeless? What about adhering to obligations?
Any craving will result it suffering however cravings for basic shelter and food to sustain the body and keep it healthy are not really the types of craving and clinging that one tries to eliminate. Not initially anyway.

Craving for food purely for its enjoyment or craving to live in a luxurious house is probably more the type of craving and clinging that one should try to eliminate as these types of cravings are the ones that bring us the most suffering.
“You only lose what you cling to”
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