On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

[Ontheway]

I disagree wholeheartedly with the statement above.

Instead, it was the misunderstanding of Dhamma concepts, not following the Way of Elders (after all, here is THERAVADA) and confusion over Suttanta's intended meanings that caused the deterioration of the Sasana.

Just be honest to ourselves and take a serious look on modern Buddhist communities around the world, although majority of the well known modern monks such as Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Vimalaramsi, Ajahn Buddhadasa, LP Dhammajayo, LP Reusi Lingdam, LP Dhammavuddho, Bhikkhu Nanavira, Ajahn Kukrit, Ajahn Maha Bua etc, all of them mainly refer to Suttas, yet what they taught either contradict each other or reinterpreting the Dhamma with their own terms. That's why Buddhism got into so many lineage.

I am of the opinion that instead of modern guru worship and supporting Papanca, a serious student should do Pariyatti, Patipatti, and Pativeda, which is of utmost importance.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

Without Abhidhamma, I would still be both (1) a mere secular meditator, and at the same time, even though to a much lesser extent, (2) a blind-faith Buddhist.

Even a little bit of Abhidhamma that I am able to appreciate saved me from both.

Speaking of the Necessity of the Abhidhamma.

[robertk]

From Mulapariyaya and Commentaries translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The “uninstructed worldling” (p40 of Mulapariyaya)

“needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be ‘uninstructed’.

This is great but both are experience of meditation -- including "study, question and discriminate the khandhas... foundations of mindfulness". It's not just reading about it.

yes of course.

na sīlabbatamattena, bāhusaccena vā pana |
atha vā samādhilābhena, vivittasayanena vā ||

phusāmi nekkhammasukhaṃ, aputhujjanasevitaṃ |
bhikkhu vissāsamāpādi, appatto āsavakkhayaṃ ||

Not merely by virtuous conduct and vows, nor, again, by much learning, nor by the attainment of samādhi, nor by sleeping in seclusion,
do I attain the happiness of absence of desire, not attained by worldlings. Nor has a bhikkhu obtained assurance, as long as he has not attained the destruction of the āsavas.
(Dhp. 271-2)

Even bahusutta ( much learning) is included in the "not merely by.."
No guarantee that learning will transpose into direct experience. However if one doesn't have the inclination and patience to learn what it is the Buddha really taught then who knows where they will end up.

Patience(khanti) is indeed a virtue in Dhamma and a perfection (parami)- and it also applies to study, so that there will be he growth of true pariyatti .
From the Cariyaapi.taka A.t.thakathaa, A Treatise on the Paaramiis (this is in Bh. Bodhi’s Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries, p. 271), regarding the perfection of patience:

The footnote by Bodhi:

“Dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. The word khanti, ordinarily used to mean patience in the sense of forbearance of the wrongs of others and the endurance of hardships, is sometimes also used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to understanding. Patience thus becomes a virtue not only of the will but of the intellect as well. It is a ‘suspension of disbelief’ born of trust, a willingness to acquiesce in propositions baffling or even scandalous to the rational understanding in the confidence that the growth of wisdom will transform this acquiescence into clear and certain knowledge. The compound dhammanijjhaanakhanti seems to indicate an intermediate stage in the process of transformation, where the understanding can accept by way of reflection the article initially assented to in faith, without fully
grasping it by immediate insight.”

From the Sammohavinodanii:
2075. “

…Anulomika.m khanti.m (‘conformable acceptance’) and so on are all synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it conforms by showing non-opposition to the five reasons for the aforesaid sphere of work and so on. Likewise, it is in conformity since it conforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). ‘It sees’ is di.t.thi (‘view’). ‘It chooses’ is ruci (‘choice’). ‘It perceives with the senses’ is muti (‘sensing’). ‘It observes’ is pekkho (‘observance’). And all these things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti (‘acceptance of study things’).

The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.
Book [V: 95-6] section 46: The Links. 38: Unhindered.
..

When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple listens carefully to the Dhamma,
alert with keen ears,
attending to it as a matter of crucial concern, as something of vital
importance, directing
his entire mind to it, in that very moment the Five Mental Hindrances
are absent in him.
On that occasion the Seven Links to Awakening develop towards
complete fulfilment…>

[alicem]

I voted "necessary," because before I started to study the Abhidhamma, it was much more difficult to understand the Dhamma. Personal interpretation of the early Nikayas isn't enough and leads to wildly divergent viewpoints (e.g. there are Ajahns in the Thai Forest Tradition who range from seeing Nibbana as an eternal citta to annihilation) that we can get tangled up in rather than relying on the wisdom of the arahants.

[Ontheway]

I voted "necessary," because before I started to study the Abhidhamma, it was much more difficult to understand the Dhamma. Personal interpretation of the early Nikayas isn't enough and leads to wildly divergent viewpoints (e.g. there are Ajahns in the Thai Forest Tradition who range from seeing Nibbana as an eternal citta to annihilation) that we can get tangled up in rather than relying on the wisdom of the arahants.

[Gwi]

if someone asks, is it necessary to study (lecture)?
If your smart you will say yes.

However, not mandatory


Abhidhammå is not obligatory,
But should be learned.


Abhidhammå = expansion of Dhammå.

The thinnest part of Abhidhammå is
"Puggala Paññatti". U can read it.
Before u guys talking bout Abhidhammå,
U must read Abhidhammå. Not just hear.

it's the same as studying chemistry in high school,
In college it will be deepened.

[DooDoot]

However, the Abhidhamma is a compilation of various works from both during and after the Buddha's passing away. They were "philosophical notes" of highly experienced/learned monks, and especially detailed categorizations of the teachings in the Suttas (in some cases extrapolations).

Sorry but the Vibhanga itself literally says its interpretations of the teachings are different to the suttas. It is clear by the Vibhanga the Abhidhamma is the presentation of new teachings, such as in relation to dependent origination:

1. Defining sankhara as every sankhara under the sun (where Sutta only has three sankhara)

2. Defining nama-rupa as the five aggregates (where Sutta is feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention plus four physical elements)

3. Defining bhava based on the Paṭisambhidāmagga, in terms of "kamma bhava" and "upapatti bhava".

4. Defining "jati" & "marana" as the birth & death of "things" ("dhammam") rather than the birth & death of "beings" ("sattanam").

For the Four Noble Truths, the Vibhanga appears to say:

1. Dukkha is bad kamma rather than attachment to the five aggregates.

2. Dukkha-samudaya is craving alone rather than craving leading to new becoming.

Thus it seems a change of the Sutta Teaching can be traced thru the Paṭisambhidāmagga, to the Abhidhamma & to the Visuddhimagga.

Obviously, none of this occurred during the Buddha's life.

[samseva]

[...]

Leave me alone. I'm not interested in your "theories."

[DooDoot]

I'm not interested in your "theories."

But what I wrote is a fact and not a theory. It is literally written in the Vibhanga that the Abhidhamma had its own unique idiosyncratic view of the Teacings. This is a literal fact. It is not a theory. Merely read the Vibhanga for yourself.

[SarathW]

However, the Abhidhamma is a compilation of various works from both during and after the Buddha's passing away. They were "philosophical notes" of highly experienced/learned monks, and especially detailed categorizations of the teachings in the Suttas (in some cases extrapolations).

Sorry but the Vibhanga itself literally says its interpretations of the teachings are different to the suttas. It is clear by the Vibhanga the Abhidhamma is the presentation of new teachings, such as in relation to dependent origination:

1. Defining sankhara as every sankhara under the sun (where Sutta only has three sankhara)

The way I understand Sankhara in Abhidhamma is what is arising in your mind. 50 Cetacikas

2. Defining nama-rupa as the five aggregates (where Sutta is feeling, perception, intention, contact, attention plus four physical elements)
Are you aware of the seven universal Cetasika in Abhidhamma?

3. Defining bhava based on the Paṭisambhidāmagga, in terms of "kamma bhava" and "upapatti bhava".

So what you are saying is we can't experience Rupa and Arupa Jhana in this very life?

4. Defining "jati" & "marana" as the birth & death of "things" ("dhammam") rather than the birth & death of "beings" ("sattanam").

Didn't Buddha say that being means attachment, aversion and ignorance?

For the Four Noble Truths, the Vibhanga appears to say:

1. Dukkha is bad kamma rather than attachment to the five aggregates.

I am not sure what you mean here.

2. Dukkha-samudaya is craving alone rather than craving leading to new becoming.
Craving leads you to Dukka. That is birth isn't it?

Thus it seems a change of the Sutta Teaching can be traced thru the Paṭisambhidāmagga, to the Abhidhamma & to the Visuddhimagga.

Obviously, none of this occurred during the Buddha's life.

[DooDoot]

This is a literal fact. It is not a theory. Merely read the Vibhanga .

The Abhidhamma says:

1. Suttantabhājanīya
1. The Section Derived from the Discourses

2. Abhidhammabhājanīya
2. The Section Derived from the Abstract Teaching

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

"Kammabhava" & "upapattibhava" are not found in the Buddha Suttas. They are found in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, in the Abhidhamma & Visuddhimagga. Since the Abhidhamma says "kammabhava" & "upapattibhava" are found in the Suttas, it appears the only place in the Suttas is the later commentary Paṭisambhidāmagga.

[bodom]

*MOD NOTE

Please stop the constant bickering back and forth. If you do not want someone to reply to your posts then please stop responding to there's. All these off topic posts will be removed immediately so please save yourself time from even posting.We have the Foe option for a reason. Please use it.

[samseva]

1. Suttantabhājanīya
1. The Section Derived from the Discourses

2. Abhidhammabhājanīya
2. The Section Derived from the Abstract Teaching

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

"Kammabhava" & "upapattibhava" are not found in the Buddha Suttas. They are found in the Paṭisambhidāmagga, in the Abhidhamma & Visuddhimagga. Since the Abhidhamma says "kammabhava" & "upapattibhava" are found in the Suttas, it appears the only place in the Suttas is the later commentary Paṭisambhidāmagga.

What are you talking about? There isn't even kammabhava and upapattibhava in what you quoted.

At least quote the passage you are talking about.

[DooDoot]

The way I understand Sankhara in Abhidhamma is what is arising in your mind. 50 Cetacikas

It appears you have not read the Abhidhamma. About sankhara in Dependent Origination, the Abidhamma says the Suttas teach the following:

1.2. Definition of (Volitional) Processes

Herein, what is ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes?’

(There is) a meritorious (volitional) process, a demeritorious (volitional) process, an impertubable (volitional) process, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

Herein, what is a meritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, in the form-world sphere, consisting of generosity, consisting of morality, consisting of meditation, this is said to be a meritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a demeritorious (volitional) process?

(There are) unwholesome intentions in the sense-world sphere, this is said to be a demeritorious (volitional) process.

Herein, what is an impertubable (volitional) process?

(There are) wholesome intentions in the formless-world sphere, this is said to be an impertubable (volitional) process.

Herein, what is a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body?

(There is) an intention expressed by way of the body, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the body. (There is) an intention expressed by way of speech, a (volitional) process expressed by way of speech. (There is) an intention expressed by way of the mind, a (volitional) process expressed by way of the mind.

This is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there are (volitional) processes’.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti

About sankhara in Dependent Origination, the Abidhamma says the Abidhamma teaches the following:

Herein, what is ‘with ignorance as condition there is a (volitional) process?’

That which is volition, intention, intentionality: this is said to be ‘with ignorance as condition there is a (volitional) process’.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti

The Abhidhamma view is different to Sutta plus the Abhidhamma appears to also misrepresent the Sutta view.

I am not sure what you mean here.

The Suttas define the 1st noble truth as follows:

Therein what is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow—lamentation—pain (physical)—mental pain—despair is suffering; association with the disliked is suffering; separation from the liked is suffering; not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering; in brief the five aggregates (as objects of) the attachments are suffering.

The Abhidhamma defines the 1st noble truth as follows:

Therein what is suffering? The remaining corruptions, the remaining bad states, the three good roots that are objects of the defilements, the remaining good states that are objects of the defilements, the resultants of good and bad states that are objects of the defilements, whatever inoperative states there are neither good nor bad nor the resultants of action, and all material qualities. This is called suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila

Its all written in the Abhidhamma. Regards

[DooDoot]

I am not sure what you mean here.

I recommend to read the Abhidhamma. For example, the suttas say about bhava in Dependent Origination:

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, bhavo?

Tayome, bhikkhave, bhavā—

kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo.

Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhavo.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato

But the Abhidhamma says the Suttas say the following about bhava in Dependent Origination:

Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Bhavo duvidhena— atthi kammabhavo, atthi upapattibhavo. Tattha katamo kammabhavo? Puññābhisaṅkhāro, apuññābhisaṅkhāro, āneñjābhisaṅkhāro— ayaṁ vuccati “kammabhavo”. Sabbampi bhavagāmikammaṁ kammabhavo.

Tattha katamo upapattibhavo? Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo— ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”. Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

Kammabhavo & upapattibhavo appear not found in Buddha Sutta but are found in the Paṭisambhidāmagga (which was added to the Suttas).



Then later the Abhidhamma appears to say according to Abhidhamma "bhava" is the four aggregates:

Tattha katamo upādānapaccayā bhavo? Ṭhapetvā upādānaṁ, vedanākkhandho saññākkhandho saṅkhārakkhandho viññāṇakkhandho— ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms

Herein, what is ‘with attachment as condition: continuation?’

Except for attachment, (it is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent, the consciousness constituent: this is said to be ‘with attachment as condition: continuation’.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti