On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

[Ontheway]

There must be a balance between following a guru and self-study.

Too much following a modern guru, would lead to disaster if the guru is without right view, just aiming for fame and recognition.

Too much self study will not beneficial either, as it will lead to mere academic status without gaining any deep insight.

Btw, following Pali Tipitaka along with Atthakatha is not, in fact, self study. Studying the Pali Tipitaka along with the Atthakatha would be the best option because it carried the Buddha's and Arahants' teachings in a crystal-clear way. The modern monks or bhikkhus, though they wear the robes and in the monastic lives, at best only be our 'seniors' working together in studying the Dhamma. But they can never be our real teachers.
Even when we take refuge in Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, we ought to take refuge in the Ariya Sangha (those on the path of or attained Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami, and Arahatta).

Only the Dhamma will be our real teacher. The Pali Tipitaka canon was preserved unbroken since the First Council till the Fourth Council, from India to Sri Lankan Mahavihara, along with the commentaries preserved and approved by the Arahats will be the the Teacher of sincere Buddhists. The words of modern contemporary monks, whether they are famous, long in the monastic lives, good in academic achievement, or well versed in poems and public speaking etc, are less trustworthy than those words of Ariyas who attained Arahantship in the past.

It is bizarre that the Sauntranika sect accused Theravada as the schismatic one because in fact they are the one that descended from Sabbathivada, a schismatic school.

Therefore, the conclusion of this issue is simple: It is up to you whether want to learn Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, but trying to advocate for "Dipitaka"? That's totally heretic.

[sphairos]

The teacher is needed mostly to teach you meditation and guide your meditation progress. Meditation is a very subtle and intimate practice, and to make progress there you need someone who has already made the steps that you are only going to make, who has traversed the path, who is Enlightened/liberated or at least more Enlightened than you are and more familiar with the states of consciousness that you need to reach, experience and understand. There are no words for these states, they are inexpressible through language.
Theravāda is a teaching on and experience of the state of a Liberated Mind, the teaching "aside from scriptures", like Ch'an/Zen, the teaching of no-view, all these various texts, suttas etc. are just conventional, just aid that may or may not be helpful on the way, while what is really important is how liberated you are, what is the state of mind. There were many arahants who were not educated, could not read, and hardly did any scriptural study by hearing, but they reached Enlightenment through their guided practice, where the Liberated state of mind was engendered in them by the guidance of competent teachers, the state of mind was transferred.
Actually, that is the only thing that matters in Theravāda. Self-study and practice is a road to nowhere, and any more or less experienced practitioner understands that. If they don't, they are not experienced and fell prey to the hubris , māna and avijjā.

[robertk]

The teacher is needed mostly to teach you meditation and guide your meditation progress. Meditation is a very subtle and intimate practice, and to make progress there you need someone who has already made the steps that you are only going to make, who has traversed the path, who is Enlightened/liberated or at least more Enlightened than you are and more familiar with the states of consciousness that you need to reach, experience and understand. There are no words for these states, they are inexpressible through language.

well at the risk of showing my lack of experience and falling prey to mana and hubris do you think this sutta is correct?
Aŋguttara-Nikāya
II. Dukanipāta
II. Adhikaraṇa Vagga

Monks, these two things
conduce to the confusion and disappearance
of true Dhamma.
What two?
The wrong expression of the letter (of the text)
and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it.
For if the letter be wrongly expressed,
the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
These two things
conduce to the confusion and disappearance
of true Dhamma.
Monks, these two things
conduce to the establishment,
the non-confusion,
to the non-disappearance
of true Dhamma.
What two?
The right expression of the letter
and right interpretation of the meaning.
For if the letter be rightly expressed,
the interpretation of the meaning is also right.
These two things conduce to the establishment,
the non-confusion,
to the non-disappearance
of true Dhamma.’

[Ceisiwr]

The teacher is needed mostly to teach you meditation and guide your meditation progress. Meditation is a very subtle and intimate practice, and to make progress there you need someone who has already made the steps that you are only going to make, who has traversed the path, who is Enlightened/liberated or at least more Enlightened than you are and more familiar with the states of consciousness that you need to reach, experience and understand. There are no words for these states, they are inexpressible through language.
Theravāda is a teaching on and experience of the state of a Liberated Mind, the teaching "aside from scriptures", like Ch'an/Zen, the teaching of no-view, all these various texts, suttas etc. are just conventional, just aid that may or may not be helpful on the way, while what is really important is how liberated you are, what is the state of mind. There were many arahants who were not educated, could not read, and hardly did any scriptural study by hearing, but they reached Enlightenment through their guided practice, where the Liberated state of mind was engendered in them by the guidance of competent teachers, the state of mind was transferred.
Actually, that is the only thing that matters in Theravāda. Self-study and practice is a road to nowhere, and any more or less experienced practitioner understands that. If they don't, they are not experienced and fell prey to the hubris , māna and avijjā.

And we should take you as an authority on this matter because?

[robertk]

there were wise ones at the time of the buddha who could understand with just a single phrase - such as Sariputta upon meeting Asajji.

The slow ones - like us at this time- need detailed teachings , and fortunately we still are at a time when we have the Abhidhamma to show that each element is conditioned and anatta.
From Mulapariyaya and Commentaries translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The “uninstructed worldling” (p40 of Mulapariyaya)

“needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be ‘uninstructed’.

Between the enlightened ones and the ‘uninstructed worldling’ there is the “good worldling” who is learning and developing correctly:

p41 “

The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good”

Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction to Mulapariyaya p14 That

“in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought temporarily together through a concatenation of conditions”

[sphairos]

The teacher is needed mostly to teach you meditation and guide your meditation progress. Meditation is a very subtle and intimate practice, and to make progress there you need someone who has already made the steps that you are only going to make, who has traversed the path, who is Enlightened/liberated or at least more Enlightened than you are and more familiar with the states of consciousness that you need to reach, experience and understand. There are no words for these states, they are inexpressible through language.

well at the risk of showing my lack of experience and falling prey to mana and hubris do you think this sutta is correct?
Aŋguttara-Nikāya
II. Dukanipāta
II. Adhikaraṇa Vagga
Monks, these two things
conduce to the confusion and disappearance
of true Dhamma.
What two?
The wrong expression of the letter (of the text)
and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it.
For if the letter be wrongly expressed,
the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong.
These two things
conduce to the confusion and disappearance
of true Dhamma.
Monks, these two things
conduce to the establishment,
the non-confusion,
to the non-disappearance
of true Dhamma.
What two?
The right expression of the letter
and right interpretation of the meaning.
For if the letter be rightly expressed,
the interpretation of the meaning is also right.
These two things conduce to the establishment,
the non-confusion,
to the non-disappearance
of true Dhamma.’

The Buddha said that existence of arahants is the most important thing in the world, because they are "the light for the world".

In this sutta the Buddha speaks of the things that conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma.

He presumes, that the most important thing is existence of arahants and competent teachers, because without that, all scriptures are meaningless.

If and only if they exist, then scriptures conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma.

[sphairos]

From Mulapariyaya and Commentaries translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The “uninstructed worldling” (p40 of Mulapariyaya)

“needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be ‘uninstructed’.

This is great but both are experience of meditation -- including "study, question and discriminate the khandhas... foundations of mindfulness". It's not just reading about it.

[sphairos]

I will add one more thing: one of the most important things is that the teacher assesses your mind and your type of character (carita) and chooses the right practice and meditation objects for you. It's very important that someone does this for you, on your own it's (very) difficult to do it.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

When this exists, that comes to be. With the arising (uppada) of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be. With the cessation (nirodha) of this, that ceases.

— Samyutta Nikaya 12.61.[40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%A ... tp%C4%81da

Isn't the whole Buddha's teaching about causality?

Correct. The above quote, properly understood, is what is needed to understand causality in this Dhamma.

But since you've advised that Abhidhamma is a necessity, please point to where in the Abhidhamma we learn idappaccayatā, let alone in more relevant detail than the Suttas on paticcasamuppada.



Metta,
Paul.

[SarathW]

Greetings,

When this exists, that comes to be. With the arising (uppada) of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be. With the cessation (nirodha) of this, that ceases.

— Samyutta Nikaya 12.61.[40]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%A ... tp%C4%81da

Isn't the whole Buddha's teaching about causality?

Correct. The above quote, properly understood, is what is needed to understand causality in this Dhamma.

But since you've advised that Abhidhamma is a necessity, please point to where in the Abhidhamma we learn idappaccayatā, let alone in more relevant detail than the Suttas on paticcasamuppada.



Metta,
Paul.

In my opinion Abhidhamma provide a comprehensive analysis of Dependent Origination.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings SarathW,

In my opinion Abhidhamma provide a comprehensive analysis of Dependent Origination.

That's not what I asked. I did not ask you to profess your faith in these works.

Sure, Theravadins have managed to create a tri-temporal rendering of paticcasamuppada which completely ignores idappaccayatā. I don't deny that for a moment, but what I asked is "please point to where in the Abhidhamma we learn idappaccayatā, let alone in more relevant detail than the Suttas on paticcasamuppada."

If you think the Abhidhamma is necessary in order for it to be understood, then such a proposition should be based upon an actual knowing, that you're able to substantiate with recourse to the texts, rather than mere empty sycophantic veneration.



Metta,
Paul.

[sunnat]

"Whoever
— although he's heard next to nothing —
sees Dhamma through self-realization, (through awareness of the mindbody phenomenon)
is not heedless of Dhamma (is mindful) :
he's one who maintains the Dhamma."

Some people harbour antipathy towards abhidhamma, some people like it very much, some people are ambivalent, some people are indifferent. Personally I have no need to know about it.

My teacher thinks highly of it as did his teachers and so on. Because of their views, and the Sangha of Elder Theravada monks throughout history, rather than the views of modern householders, I think it is good. However, above that I use results of practice as indicator and as I practice according to teachers partly dependent on abhidhamma and continue to experience good progress on the path it seems clear that abhidhamma is good.

[thomaslaw]

as I practice according to teachers partly dependent on abhidhamma and continue to experience good progress on the path it seems clear that abhidhamma is good.

In what way it is good? Good what?

[circuit]

learn a little bit Abhidhamma in order to understand the sutta, yes, sounds like good, if it is really enlighten people to understand sutta. but the Buddha already taught Dhamma in a very clear local language. as a result, Buddha's teaching spread widely in the period of time.

look what happened after Abhidhamma and Commentaries and Visuddhimagga replaced the original Buddha's teaching: buddhism declined very fastly everywhere ,

even in its motherland India , buddhism declined like a crash

it was because learn too much Abhidhamma and Commentaries and Visuddhimagga, so way of thinking changed,

[sunnat]

Re good: 'the proof is in the pudding' when one eats it, then one knows, as opposed to reading the recipe or discussing variants of it.