On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

The Abhidhamma is

Necessary to understand and practice the Dhamma.
10
21%
Not necessary to understand and practice the Dhamma.
20
43%
Helpful to some but not needed by others.
14
30%
Not sure.
3
6%
 
Total votes: 47

Cause_and_Effect
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

SarathW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:49 am For a Buddhist mainly concentrate on Sila And Samadhi, the sutta is quite adequate.
However when it comes to Panna and practice Satipathana, the Abhidhamma is a great benefit.
In my opinon, those people who voted that Abhidhamma is not necessary (option 2) have never read Abhidhamma or who are overwhelmed by the teaching. Perhaps they should start with some easy reading with a Abhidhamma summary.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
I think it is more likely you have been overwhelmed by the work that needs to be done in practice and meditation, and seek recourse in more safe and familiar intellectualizing which is the domain of the abhidhamma.
This is a common reaction from scholarly or academic types to the practice, where focus on abhidhamma or sutta translation obsessions comes to predominate for them as a form of aversion and avoidance of the real work.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Ontheway
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:49 am Agree.
For a Buddhist mainly concentrate on Sila And Samadhi, the sutta is quite adequate.
However when it comes to Panna and practice Satipathana, the Abhidhamma is a great benefit.
In my opinon, those people who voted that Abhidhamma is not necessary (option 2) have never read Abhidhamma or who are overwhelmed by the teaching. Perhaps they should start with some easy reading with a Abhidhamma summary.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
But here in this forum, the hatred towards Abhidhamma is big here. 😅

I myself is not quite fond of Abhidhamma Pitaka's listings and long exposition. But when I learned some of Abhidhamma concepts, it quickly solved the problems that I have for Dhamma understanding, such as the mode of rebirth, the rebirth phenomenon, the changing of mind states, the question on materiality, Paticca Samuppada etc.

I guess it is up to those deniers ... Buddha said "Ehipassiko", let those who desire truths investigate further ...
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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retrofuturist
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:48 am But here in this forum, the hatred towards Abhidhamma is big here. 😅
I don't think that's true. Most are happy just to let the Abhidhamma be, and leave it to the side. It's more the disdain coming from the Abhidhamma evangelists and those who insist that the Buddha's words cannot be understood without recourse to works written centuries later, which wears thin. That's only a minority of people though - and according to the poll, tops out at around 25%... but even then, most of them will not be insufferable zealots. The more mature and experienced Abhidhammikas will just understand and explain the Abhidhamma, rather than evangelize and fervently praise it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ontheway
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by Ontheway »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:54 am Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:48 am But here in this forum, the hatred towards Abhidhamma is big here. 😅
I don't think that's true. Most are happy just to let the Abhidhamma be, and leave it to the side. It's more the disdain of Abhidhamma evangelists and those who insist that the Buddha's words cannot be understood without recourse to works written centuries later, which wears thin.

Metta,
Paul. :)
But there are some truths to that statement made by SarathW. That is why new schools such as Mahasanghika and Vetulya appeared.

People read the Suttanta and interpret differently. That's kinda dangerous. Not only it brings difficulties to practice, it also bring demerits to the person that will cause him end up in woeful states next life to come. That's why we need Abhidhamma that approved by Arahants to served as Vanguard of the Suttanta Pitaka.

Of course, nowadays people reject it, that's how you got some monks claimed attainment yet not compatible with his deeds, some monks claimed no heaven or hells, and some monk said got "Soul concept" ...

I am not trying to convince anyone here the importance of Abhidhamma. People are free to think for themselves according to their capacity. And everyone will need to be responsible for their Kamma.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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retrofuturist
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ontheway,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:07 am People read the Suttanta and interpret differently. That's kinda dangerous. Not only it brings difficulties to practice, it also bring demerits to the person that will cause him end up in woeful states next life to come. That's why we need Abhidhamma that approved by Arahants to served as Vanguard of the Suttanta Pitaka.
If you say so. Personally I'd rather accept the views of people who follow the Sutta Pitaka, even if I don't agree with them on all aspects, than the view of someone who surrenders an intellectual monopoly to the Theravada writers of old... but maybe that's just me. :smile:

As for your speculative view that understanding the Dhamma differently to the Abhidhammic view results in woeful states, this sounds like nothing more than sectarian fear-mongering, reminiscent of Vajrayana.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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samseva
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by samseva »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:54 am It's more the disdain coming from the Abhidhamma evangelists and those who insist that the Buddha's words cannot be understood without recourse to works written centuries later, which wears thin. [...] The more mature and experienced Abhidhammikas will just understand and explain the Abhidhamma, rather than evangelize
I'm pro-Abhidhamma, and I fully support this message. :thumbsup:

However, the Abhidhamma is a compilation of various works from both during and after the Buddha's passing away. They were "philosophical notes" of highly experienced/learned monks, and especially detailed categorizations of the teachings in the Suttas (in some cases extrapolations).
Ontheway
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by Ontheway »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:21 am Greetings Ontheway,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:07 am People read the Suttanta and interpret differently. That's kinda dangerous. Not only it brings difficulties to practice, it also bring demerits to the person that will cause him end up in woeful states next life to come. That's why we need Abhidhamma that approved by Arahants to served as Vanguard of the Suttanta Pitaka.
If you say so. Personally I'd rather accept the views of people who follow the Sutta Pitaka, even if I don't agree with them on all aspects, than the view of someone who surrenders an intellectual monopoly to the Theravada writers of old... but maybe that's just me. :smile:

As for your speculative view that understanding the Dhamma differently to the Abhidhammic view results in woeful states, this sounds like nothing more than sectarian fear-mongering, reminiscent of Vajrayana.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I care less about Vajrayana or this Yana or that yana...

It was in the Suttanta after all, those who misunderstood the meaning of Dhamma will bring much sufferings.

Now for Abhidhamma acceptance, it is up to people.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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retrofuturist
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ontheway,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:35 am I care less about Vajrayana or this Yana or that yana...
Then you might be able to appreciate how those who follow the Sutta Pitaka might feel about your preferred sectarian works.
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:35 am Now for Abhidhamma acceptance, it is up to people.
Agreed.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:54 am Greetings,
Ontheway wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:48 am But here in this forum, the hatred towards Abhidhamma is big here. 😅
I don't think that's true. Most are happy just to let the Abhidhamma be, and leave it to the side. It's more the disdain coming from the Abhidhamma evangelists and those who insist that the Buddha's words cannot be understood without recourse to works written centuries later, which wears thin. That's only a minority of people though - and according to the poll, tops out at around 25%... but even then, most of them will not be insufferable zealots. The more mature and experienced Abhidhammikas will just understand and explain the Abhidhamma, rather than evangelize and fervently praise it.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Actually, the 25% of acceptance is quite high (perhaps because a higher percentage of Dhamma Wheel members are quite knowledgeable) rating considering Buddha said only less than a handful of people understand the true teaching and the majority will never understand it. :tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
circuit
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by circuit »

Abhidhamma and Commentaries are already sneaked into sutta before the sutta get written.

example: Mahāsatipaṭṭhanasutta

the "Four noble truth part" of the Mahāsatipaṭṭhanasutta is a later addition, very different and not go along with the passages before it.

So, the original Buddha's teaching in suttas also already contaminated because of this kind of mixing into sutta.

after it then, Abhidhamma also be made into one special pitaka.

Buddha's teaching which is Dhamma and vinaya become Tipitaka which added Abhidhamma.

the word Dhamma be changed become Abhidhamma.

the result? deviation. astray.

the Brahmin taught that it is impossible for people to understand Veda without Commentaries.

but The Buddha already taught his disciples with plain language, all understand without the very need of Commentaries and Abhidhamma. which are only proliferations
Last edited by circuit on Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by SarathW »

Why can't we accept this three Pitaka (Sutta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya) are inter-related hence all three are a good source of understanding what Buddha taught? In my opinion, all Tipitaka has contaminated some or other way.
So it is up to us to sort out the real teaching by practice not by trying to be a Padaparma.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sphairos
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by sphairos »

Much more important than both is a teacher competent in meditation and versed in the teaching, who can guide you.

Self-study gives bad results, like in the OP.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:42 am Much more important than both is a teacher competent in meditation and versed in the teaching, who can guide you.

Self-study gives bad results, like in the OP.
Says the man who’s views come from self study.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:39 am Why can't we accept this three Pitaka (Sutta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya) are inter-related hence all three are a good source of understanding what Buddha taught?
Why is it so important to you that we accept this, and how can something that happened centuries after something else be inter-related?

I thought the Abhidhamma was supposed to teach you about causality? Clearly more study is required.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:06 am Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:39 am Why can't we accept this three Pitaka (Sutta, Abhidhamma, Vinaya) are inter-related hence all three are a good source of understanding what Buddha taught?
Why is it so important to you that we accept this, and how can something that happened centuries after something else be inter-related?

I thought the Abhidhamma was supposed to teach you about causality? Clearly more study is required.

Metta,
Paul. :)
When this exists, that comes to be. With the arising (uppada) of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be. With the cessation (nirodha) of this, that ceases.

— Samyutta Nikaya 12.61.[40]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%A ... tp%C4%81da


Isn't the whole Buddha's teaching about causality?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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