(Understand and Practice the Dhamma):
imo, "The Dhamma", here, can be interpreted in more than one way. And, there were the differences in approaches even amongst Buddha's immediate disciples.
In some thriving traditions today, the proficiency in Abhidhamma is compulsory for the teachers but not necessary for the meditation students. I think, Mahasi is one such tradition. In a video, Chan Myae Sayadaw, one of the foremost students of Mahasi, answered to a foreign layman student that Abhidhamma was not necessary for that particular student's practice, while Vissudhimagga was important.
Another interesting point for me is that Mogok Sayadaw, arguably the most well known Abhidhamma teacher for monastics in his days gave his laymen-meditation-students guided meditations probably exclusively in the perspectives of suttas, imo.
Abhidhamma is a must for perpetuation of Buddha's Dhamma as a whole, serving as a stronghold. For individual liberation, it may or may not be necessary as a prerequisite knowledge, depending upon the approach and the person's constitution.
To sum up,
--> Helpful to some but not needed by others. And, a must for strong perpetuation of Buddha's Dhamma as a whole.
On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
V. Nanananda
𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
- Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
V. Buddhādasa
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
I think there has been an Abhidhamma since the time of the Buddha.
The Abhidhamma is just a more rigorous form of all of the lists we see in the suttas. It likely existed during the time of the Buddha.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbhidharmaThe various Vinaya accounts of the compilation of the Buddhist canon after the death of the Buddha offer various sometimes conflicting narratives regarding the canonical status of Abhidharma.[18] While the Mahāsāṅghika Vinaya does not speak of an Abhidharma apart from the Sutra Pitaka and the Vinaya Pitaka, the Mahīśāsaka, Theravāda, Dharmaguptaka and Sarvāstivāda Vinayas all provide different accounts which mention that there was some kind of Abhidharma to be learned aside form the Sutras and Vinaya.[19] According to Analayo, "the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya does not explicitly mention the Abhidharma, although it reports that on this occasion Mahākāśyapa recited the mātṛkā(s)."[20] Analayo thinks that this reflects an early stage, when what later became Abhidharma was called the mātṛkās. The term appears in some sutras, such as the Mahāgopālaka-sutta (and its parallel) which says that a learned monk is one who knows the Dharma, Vinaya and the mātṛkās.[21]
https://suttacentral.net/mn33/en/sujatoIt’s when a mendicant doesn’t from time to time go up to those mendicants who are very learned—knowledgeable in the scriptures, who have memorized the teachings, the texts on monastic training, and the outlines—and ask them questions:
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ye te bhikkhū bahussutā āgatāgamā dhammadharā vinayadharā mātikādharā, te kālena kālaṃ upasaṅkamitvā na paripucchati, na paripañhati:
The Abhidhamma is just a more rigorous form of all of the lists we see in the suttas. It likely existed during the time of the Buddha.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- retrofuturist
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Greetings Ceisiwir,
Left undefined, mātikādharā, could just as easily refer to the numerous suttas which resemble the Abhidhamma extract shared earlier.
For example...
Metta,
Paul.
Left undefined, mātikādharā, could just as easily refer to the numerous suttas which resemble the Abhidhamma extract shared earlier.
For example...
AN 2.7 wrote:“These two things, mendicants, are dark. What two? Lack of conscience and prudence. These are the two things that are dark.”
AN 2.8 wrote:“These two things, mendicants, are bright. What two? Conscience and prudence. These are the two things that are bright.”
AN 2.10 wrote:“There are, mendicants, these two entries to the rainy season. What two? Earlier and later. These are the two entries to the rainy season.”
Those are "full" suttas by the way... not extracts.AN 2.14 wrote:“There are, mendicants, these two ways of teaching the Dhamma. What two? In brief and in detail. These are two ways of teaching the Dhamma.”
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
https://www.academia.edu/24132029/The_M ... d_the_ListThe earliest Buddhist literature was composed orally and built up around lists. From the ever-growing body of literature, the Buddhist tradition began to abstract lists and to compile composite lists. The development of this pro cess led to the development of the matikas proper. The matikas were seen as encapsulating the essence of the Dhamma; as such they were also seen as sources for the further exposition of the Dhamma. Expositions based on the matikas could reveal the Dhamma in its fullness, and so, in part, the Abhid- hamma— the further Dhamma, the higher Dhamma— was born. Especially characteristic of the Abhidhamma proper is the use of the triplet-couplet matika combined with the core matikd that was the basis of the old samyutta collection.
The lists and subsequent matikas aided memorization of the Dhamma not only by enabling one to conveniently sum up vast amounts of teaching, but also by helping one to find one's way around it; they provided a map of the Dhamma. The lists also formed a part of the practice of the Dhamma. The recitation and repetition of the lists of the Abhidhamma constituted a medi tation exercise in itself that cultivated insight, wisdom, and mindfulness and inspired faith in the teaching of the Buddha. In sum, the matikas seem to combine, in a distinctively Buddhist fashion, elements of memorization, mindfulness, and meditation; from the womb of the matikas these emerge as one.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."
(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
It appears, I have miss this important OP.
I voted (1)as it is necessary to understand Abhidhamma to be a good practitioner.
I voted (1)as it is necessary to understand Abhidhamma to be a good practitioner.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Greetings,
But whatever makes you a "good practitioner", I suppose.
Metta,
Paul.
It's a shame that the Buddha didn't understand it then, as he'd never even heard of it.
But whatever makes you a "good practitioner", I suppose.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
I see your point.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:34 am Greetings,
It's a shame that the Buddha didn't understand it then, as he'd never even heard of it.
But whatever makes you a "good practitioner", I suppose.
Metta,
Paul.
But you have to understand we do not have Buddha today and the people capable in realising the Dhamma without detailed analysis.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1105&p=640235#p640235Jechbi: (1) Is it an accurate understanding of the teaching that only Padaparama and Neyya humans are born now?
Dhammanando: ugghaṭitaññūs and vipañcitaññūs are generally held not to exist any more
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Greetings,
So once again you're demonstrating how a partisan sectarian understanding of the Dhamma simply reinforces its own doctrines, and in doing so veers away from understanding the Dhamma on its own merits.
Metta,
Paul.
And you have to understand that what is presented above is commentarial doctrine, once again not taught by the Buddha.SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:30 am But you have to understand we do not have Buddha today and the people capable in realising the Dhamma without detailed analysis.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1105&p=640235#p640235Jechbi: (1) Is it an accurate understanding of the teaching that only Padaparama and Neyya humans are born now?
Dhammanando: ugghaṭitaññūs and vipañcitaññūs are generally held not to exist any more
So once again you're demonstrating how a partisan sectarian understanding of the Dhamma simply reinforces its own doctrines, and in doing so veers away from understanding the Dhamma on its own merits.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Didn't vote, since the options of the poll are either 100% (necessary), 40% (helpful) or 0-10% (not necessary).
I would add (equivalent to 70%): "not necessary, but highly beneficial."
I would add (equivalent to 70%): "not necessary, but highly beneficial."
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
I agree with your point but chose the best or the closest option.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
I voted the first, but...
To a layperson that just observe 5 precepts or 8 precepts during Uposatha days, occasionally joining retreat, occasionally Dana and chanting the scriptures, Abhidhamma Pitaka might be optional for them to study. Just Suttanta scriptures that specially spoken to householders will do (eg: Sigalaka Sutta). That will reap great worldly benefits for them too.
To someone that really want to destroy fetters and attain Nibbana in future, need to have pure Sila, practice Bhavana, and master the Dhamma concepts correctly in order to get rid of Wrong Views, that person will need to read both Suttanta correctly and have at least the basic Abhidhamma knowledge (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbana). But in order to penetrate the deep Abhidhamma and gain wisdom, one have to develop Samadhi in order to see things as they are. For knowledge doesn't mean Wisdom. Knowledge is merely Sanna.
If a person still cannot see beings as Namarupa (Nama: Citta, Cetasika; Rupa: rupa or Nama: Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, Vinnana; Rupa: rupa), then the person might still have Sakkaya Ditthi. Therefore, Abhidhamma is quite important in this matter.
Now I am still a layperson, got first exposure to Abhidhamma knowledge via the short 7 short introductory passages of Abhidhamma Pitaka in Thai Buddhist Chanting book. Then I read the detailed explanation in Visuddhimagga, along with Abhidhammattha Sangha. Having understood the basic tenets (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana) from these works, I am now slowly proceed to the Dhammasangani Matika. It helps a lot in clearing my doubts about Ditthi.
To a layperson that just observe 5 precepts or 8 precepts during Uposatha days, occasionally joining retreat, occasionally Dana and chanting the scriptures, Abhidhamma Pitaka might be optional for them to study. Just Suttanta scriptures that specially spoken to householders will do (eg: Sigalaka Sutta). That will reap great worldly benefits for them too.
To someone that really want to destroy fetters and attain Nibbana in future, need to have pure Sila, practice Bhavana, and master the Dhamma concepts correctly in order to get rid of Wrong Views, that person will need to read both Suttanta correctly and have at least the basic Abhidhamma knowledge (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbana). But in order to penetrate the deep Abhidhamma and gain wisdom, one have to develop Samadhi in order to see things as they are. For knowledge doesn't mean Wisdom. Knowledge is merely Sanna.
If a person still cannot see beings as Namarupa (Nama: Citta, Cetasika; Rupa: rupa or Nama: Vedana, Sanna, Sankhara, Vinnana; Rupa: rupa), then the person might still have Sakkaya Ditthi. Therefore, Abhidhamma is quite important in this matter.
Now I am still a layperson, got first exposure to Abhidhamma knowledge via the short 7 short introductory passages of Abhidhamma Pitaka in Thai Buddhist Chanting book. Then I read the detailed explanation in Visuddhimagga, along with Abhidhammattha Sangha. Having understood the basic tenets (Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana) from these works, I am now slowly proceed to the Dhammasangani Matika. It helps a lot in clearing my doubts about Ditthi.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Agree.
For a Buddhist mainly concentrate on Sila And Samadhi, the sutta is quite adequate.
However when it comes to Panna and practice Satipathana, the Abhidhamma is a great benefit.
In my opinon, those people who voted that Abhidhamma is not necessary (option 2) have never read Abhidhamma or who are overwhelmed by the teaching. Perhaps they should start with some easy reading with a Abhidhamma summary.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
For a Buddhist mainly concentrate on Sila And Samadhi, the sutta is quite adequate.
However when it comes to Panna and practice Satipathana, the Abhidhamma is a great benefit.
In my opinon, those people who voted that Abhidhamma is not necessary (option 2) have never read Abhidhamma or who are overwhelmed by the teaching. Perhaps they should start with some easy reading with a Abhidhamma summary.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: On the Necessity of the Abhidhamma
Greetings SarathW,
Stop evangelizing the Abhidhamma to people when they have made a conscious decision not to embrace it. Your reasons given for why people reject the Abhidhamma are simple-minded, condescending and reflect a lack of understanding of others perspectives, despite them having been presented to you countless times.
Metta,
Paul.
(Spoken as a forum member, not in any official capacity...)SarathW wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:49 am.
In my opinon, those people who voted that Abhidhamma is not necessary (option 2) have never read Abhidhamma or who are overwhelmed by the teaching. Perhaps they should start with some easy reading with a Abhidhamma summary.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
Stop evangelizing the Abhidhamma to people when they have made a conscious decision not to embrace it. Your reasons given for why people reject the Abhidhamma are simple-minded, condescending and reflect a lack of understanding of others perspectives, despite them having been presented to you countless times.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."