Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

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perkele
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Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by perkele »

From another thread:
BKh wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:35 amThere is also a belief (I think just from the commentaries) that this type of karma not only prevents enlightenment in the life where it is committed and forces rebirth in hell,but additionally all the bad results must be experienced before Nibbana, unlike almost all other types of karma results that are left behind.
Vandami, Bhante,
and hello, anyone interested.

The part I bolded above in that quote is new to me and contradicts what I seem to remember from a sutta (which I can't find now), that stated, according to my memory, that there is no way to avoid experiencing the vipaka of any action.

Googling for it, I found this in the Wikipedia article "Karma in Buddhism":
Wikipedia: Karma in Buddhism wrote: In AN 5.292, the Buddha asserted that it is not possible to avoid experiencing the result of a karmic deed once it has been committed.
Probably meant to refer to the same sutta that I remember. But the reference to AN5.292 seems to be wrong.
IIRC, it also specifically stated, or at least circumscribed it in a way that it could be clearly concluded, that the result of any action has to be experienced before attaining parinibbana.

Does anyone know which sutta I am talking about?

And are there any known canonical sources for the quoted statement by Ven. Bkh?

Thanks.
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by befriend »

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html This may help the salt crystal sutta
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sentinel
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by sentinel »

perkele wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:06 pm From another thread:
BKh wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:35 amThere is also a belief (I think just from the commentaries) that this type of karma not only prevents enlightenment in the life where it is committed and forces rebirth in hell,but additionally all the bad results must be experienced before Nibbana, unlike almost all other types of karma results that are left behind.
Vandami, Bhante,
and hello, anyone interested.

The part I bolded above in that quote is new to me and contradicts what I seem to remember from a sutta (which I can't find now), that stated, according to my memory, that there is no way to avoid experiencing the vipaka of any action.

Googling for it, I found this in the Wikipedia article "Karma in Buddhism":
Wikipedia: Karma in Buddhism wrote: In AN 5.292, the Buddha asserted that it is not possible to avoid experiencing the result of a karmic deed once it has been committed.
Probably meant to refer to the same sutta that I remember. But the reference to AN5.292 seems to be wrong.
IIRC, it also specifically stated, or at least circumscribed it in a way that it could be clearly concluded, that the result of any action has to be experienced before attaining parinibbana.

Does anyone know which sutta I am talking about?

And are there any known canonical sources for the quoted statement by Ven. Bkh?

Thanks.
" All the bad results must be experienced before nibbana or parinibbana " ,
does this passage can be found in the suttas at all ?
I suspect this was not originally from Buddha's teachings .
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Zom »

....
Last edited by Zom on Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Zom »

I suspect this was not originally from Buddha's teachings .
This is very original Buddha's teaching, though it contradicts commentarial theravada teaching.

Here, I wrote: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=569359#p569359
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by sentinel »

Zom wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:16 pm
I suspect this was not originally from Buddha's teachings .
This is very original Buddha's teaching, though it contradicts commentarial theravada teaching.

Here, I wrote: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=569359#p569359

Please take note that the phrase is "bad deed done Here in the past" !
"And Not follow along".

Ps . Why only the "bad" deeds has to exhaust itself , what about the "good" deeds need not to blossom or take effect ?!

“The noble disciple understands: ‘Whatever bad deed I did here in the past with this deed-born body is all to be experienced here. It will not follow along.’
(AN 10.219)
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by SteRo »

I've been taught that it is not possible to escape the vipaka but that there is interaction between negative and positive kamma so that the extent of negative vipaka may be reduced by positive vipaka. but I don't know whether there is evidence for that view in sutta.
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu »

SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:26 pm I've been taught that it is not possible to escape the vipaka but that there is interaction between negative and positive kamma so that the extent of negative vipaka may be reduced by positive vipaka. but I don't know whether there is evidence for that view in sutta.
:goodpost:
I applaud your epistemic humility here and use of pronouns.
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Zom »

Ps . Why only the "bad" deeds has to exhaust itself , what about the "good" deeds need not to blossom or take effect ?!
I think all kamma exhausts itself, positive, negative, and special eightfold path kamma too. What is kamma? This is an "energy" acting in the world, created by a certain individual. It is entirely connected with him, a part of him, and simply cannot exist without him. This is why it makes perfect sense when Buddha says that all kamma must be exhausted before one reaches final nibbana (which is the cessation of personal existence).

As for "bad deeds" in this phrase - it refers to general discussion in the sutta (AN 10.219). It is about bad deeds.
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by binocular »

sentinel wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:26 pmPs . Why only the "bad" deeds has to exhaust itself , what about the "good" deeds need not to blossom or take effect ?!
Probably because generally, we think that the real problem are only the bad deeds, and that they are the ones binding us to the cycle of samsara.

We seem to think that the good deeds, by virtue of being good, are not a problem. Even though they also bind us to the cycle of samsara.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Greetings,

According to the Abhidhammathha Sangaha there is classification of kamma called "ahosi" (defunct) kamma. That is kamma that should have ripened but the conditions were not met. So, for the Arahant this is all of the past kamma from lifetimes ago that was due to ripen but did not due to contacting the nibbana element. I've attached a screenshot below.

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Attachments
CMOA.jpg
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by perkele »

befriend wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:31 pm https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html This may help the salt crystal sutta
Sadhu!
The salt crystal Sutta is certainly relevant in this context.

Zom wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:16 pm
I suspect this was not originally from Buddha's teachings .
This is very original Buddha's teaching, though it contradicts commentarial theravada teaching.

Here, I wrote: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=569359#p569359
Thank you very much! That seems to point to exactly the statement by the Buddha which I was thinking of:
Zom wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:05 pm Probably the most direct statement:
Bhikkhus, I do not say that there is a termination of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated so long as one has not experienced its results, and that may be in this very life, or in the next rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. But I do not say that there is making an end of suffering so long as one has not experienced the results of volitional kamma that has been done and accumulated.
According to Phra Google, the Sutta in question seems to be
AN 10.208 or AN 10.218 or AN10.219 or AN 10.217 or AN 10.206 or all of them.
(Different numbering systems might be applied here and there.)
To complement above quoted statement with a translation by Ven. Thanissaro:
„[url=https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.208.than.html wrote:AN 10.208[/url]AN 10.208: Brahmavihara Sutta -The Sublime Attitudes[/url]“]
"Monks, I don't speak of the wiping out of intentional acts that have been done & accumulated without [their results] having been experienced, either in the here & now or in a further state hereafter. Nor do I speak of the act of putting an end to suffering and stress without having experienced [the results of] intentional acts that have been done & accumulated.
Note: written on a shitty iPhone. Took at least an hour. Maybe syntax errors in BBCode.
perkele
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by perkele »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:07 pm
SteRo wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:26 pm I've been taught that it is not possible to escape the vipaka but that there is interaction between negative and positive kamma so that the extent of negative vipaka may be reduced by positive vipaka. but I don't know whether there is evidence for that view in sutta.
:goodpost:
I applaud your epistemic humility here and use of pronouns.
Yes, well done SteRo! :thumbsup:

It seems there is evidence for what you’ve been taught: in the Salt Crystal Sutta, suttas about Angulimsla, and maybe other suttas referenced above: By developing the Brahmaviharas, „incoming impacts“ of akusala vipaka from the past can be much reduced, it seems, in many cases (but not the 5 „heinous acts“ which always lead to Avici hell). Like in the case of Angulimala even, who killed 999 people but „only“ got badly injured for that within the same lifetime as an arahat. (possibly fatal? But that was it: then parinibbana)
Seems to require much self-effacement and humility, though. Accepting/recognizing that the pain experienced is vipaka from previous evil done by oneself. Then one does not have to suffer so much, it seems.

(Seems not so very appealing for someone who just wants to enjoy samsara some more: much giving up / acceptance / giving up resistance [probably best through real umderstanding] involved.)
perkele
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by perkele »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:10 pm Greetings,

According to the Abhidhammathha Sangaha there is classification of kamma called "ahosi" (defunct) kamma. That is kamma that should have ripened but the conditions were not met. So, for the Arahant this is all of the past kamma from lifetimes ago that was due to ripen but did not due to contracting the nibbana element. I've attached a screenshot below.

https://www.saraniya.com/books/meditati ... dhamma.pdf
Thank you for the interesting reference which I also remembered and was always confused about.

(I‘ve added a bolded letter, because that‘s what I read at first and found it funny: „contracting the nibbana element / virus“. :tongue: )

So that‘s one reason for me not to believe in the overall validity of „the Abhidhamma“, if that‘s truly what „the Abhidhamma“ proposes. Because it contradicts the suttas.

But maybe it‘s not „the Abhidhamma“ which makes such a statement but just the Abhidhammatha-Sangaha (for example) in this case, contradicting the suttas. Who knows...
Last edited by perkele on Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is it possible to escape the vipaka of any kamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

perkele
So that‘s one reason not to believe in „the Abhidhamma“, if that‘s truly what „the Abhidhamma“ proposes. Because it contradicts the suttas.

But maybe it‘s not „the Abhidhamma“ which makes such a statement but just the Abhidhammatha-Sangaha (for example) in this case, contradicting the suttas. Who knows...
It would be good to read the commentary to the suttas in question before rushing to ditch the wisdom of the Abhidhamma and related commentaries.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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