LGBT+ Monks and Nuns

[mikenz66]

Obsessed? No. Merely questioning if its wise for these monks and nuns to do so, and if its a bad sign or not.

I think it's great for lay people who do want appropriate role models. I know from other contexts that role models can be very helpful. As a lay person, I look to monastics as role models for certain aspects of my practice and my life. One of my teachers, an American, was a software engineer before he had a brain tumour, and subsequently became a bhikkhu and he was able to bring out things from his life experience that were helpful to me.

However, I'm not gay, trans, or a woman, so my knowledge of what is particularly helpful for others is only based on what they tell me.


Mike

[Aloka]

In recent times I've noticed certain monks and nuns who self identify as being gay or non-binary, so much so they declare that they are a "out and proud" gay monk or trans person. They then go on to promote Dhamma specifically aimed at LGBT+ people, or go to great lengths to point out their LGBT+ friendly credentials. I also find that they spend a lot of time discussing LGBT+ issues and place a great value on promoting a modern form of politics, one that is completely centered around positively identifying with some characteristic or another

I've only just started reading this topic - and I knew nothing about any of this! Please could you send me examples and links by PM if you don't want to do it publicly?

[Ceisiwr]

Hi Aloka

Coëmgenu gave some links on page 2.

[Ceisiwr]

mikenz66

I think it's great for lay people who do want appropriate role models. I know from other contexts that role models can be very helpful. As a lay person, I look to monastics as role models for certain aspects of my practice and my life. One of my teachers, an American, was a software engineer before he had a brain tumour, and subsequently became a bhikkhu and he was able to bring out things from his life experience that were helpful to me.

I would think a good Buddhist monastic role model would be one who doesn’t take some irrelevant and boring character trait as the sole, or at least very high, defining characteristic about themselves. In other words, a monastic who does not show signs of strong clinging to the aggregates.

However, I'm not gay, trans, or a woman, so my knowledge of what is particularly helpful for others is only based on what they tell me.

Ok well, this one is telling you that it isn’t helpful nor inspiring.

[Aloka]

Hi Aloka

Coëmgenu gave some links on page 2.

Thanks.


.

[Ceisiwr]

salayatananirodha

What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.

One to whom it might occur,
'I'm a woman' or 'I'm a man'
Or 'I'm anything at all' —
Is fit for Mara to address.

Thanks for this. Sadly many leftist Buddhists would be uncomfortable with the message of this sutta as it’s “erasing people’s lived experiences” or some other drivel along those lines.

[binocular]

I would have rather not named and shamed.

How common is the phenomenon you're talking about?

We need to know this for the discussion of the topic. I've never seen or heard of what you're talking about in the OP.

Thanks for this. Sadly many leftist Buddhists would be uncomfortable with the message of this sutta as it’s “erasing people’s lived experiences” or some other drivel along those lines.

"Drivel"? Just feel the compassion oozing!

[santa100]

Maybe it's a matter of word clarification. Next time if you encounter some monk/nun saying that they're "LGBT monks/nuns", simply ask them to clarify what exactly do they mean by that term? Does it mean they used to engage in LGBT sex acts in the past BEFORE they became monks/nuns, OR they're still engaging in LGBT sex acts now? Because if they are, they should've already been expulsed from the Order for committing a Parajikas offense. Once one's become a monk/nun, doesnt' matter if s/he actively "do" it with opposite sex, same sex, an animal, a dead corpse, in a group, etc. whatever way, shape, or form, s/he'd automatically stop being a monk/nun, period. That's why "LGBT monastic" is such a meaningless term, as meaningless as straight/bestial/swinging/necrophile/pedophile/sado-masochist/.... monastic!

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

The passage I quoted contains the sort of arguments I hear from alt-right and reactionary commentators. I disagree with them. Is that clear enough?

Yes, thanks for clarifying. As per TOS2i posts that are not mindful of the current topic, as defined in the initial post are being removed.

Please familiarise yourself with the original post to understand the topic. If you want to share what you think of certain political viewpoints, please do so at DWE where it would neither be off-topic nor off-forum.



Metta,
Paul.

[Dan74]

I guess gay people face varying degrees of discrimination in different countries, but perhaps it's not only about that.

As practitioners, we work with our kamma. Sexuality, it seems to me, is one of the major things we with with with in the course of Dhamma practice, so wouldn't it make sense that gay practitioners work on this shared kamma together?

This could for instance refer to issues of acceptance, both by family, friends and oneself, dealing with gay culture, etc etc..

Sure, I can see how some people may think that these groupings reinforce identification, whereas what the Dhamma aims to do is the exact opposite, but it doesn't have to work this way. It can actually help work through them and consciously let go.

Of course, there is a lot of other kamma we share besides sexuality, so gay Buddhists can choose to practice in "mixed-sexuality" Sanghas or gay Sanghas or both.

[Ceisiwr]

I guess gay people face varying degrees of discrimination in different countries, but perhaps it's not only about that.

As practitioners, we work with our kamma. Sexuality, it seems to me, is one of the major things we with with in the course of Dhamma practice, so wouldn't it make sense that gay practitioners work on this shared kamma together?

This could for instance refer to issues of acceptance, both by family, friends and oneself, dealing with gay culture, etc etc..

Sure, I can see how some people may think that these groupings reinforce identification, whereas what the Dhamma aims to do is the exact opposite, but it doesn't have to work this way. It can actually help work through them and consciously let go.

My OP is more about the monks and nuns themselves rather than these groups, which whilst I do not see the need for I am less concerned with.

[Dan74]

I guess gay people face varying degrees of discrimination in different countries, but perhaps it's not only about that.

As practitioners, we work with our kamma. Sexuality, it seems to me, is one of the major things we with with in the course of Dhamma practice, so wouldn't it make sense that gay practitioners work on this shared kamma together?

This could for instance refer to issues of acceptance, both by family, friends and oneself, dealing with gay culture, etc etc..

Sure, I can see how some people may think that these groupings reinforce identification, whereas what the Dhamma aims to do is the exact opposite, but it doesn't have to work this way. It can actually help work through them and consciously let go.

My OP is more about the monks and nuns themselves rather than these groups, which whilst I do not see the need for I am less concerned with.

Having heard a number of monks and nuns on this topic, my impression is that the celibates remain human beings, that is sexual beings, at least until awakening. This does not mean that they break their vows, of course, but that they practice with their sexuality. So a gay monk to me does not mean a sexually active gay monk, which would indeed be an oxymoron, but a celibate monk of gay sexual orientation.

[binocular]

Having heard a number of monks and nuns on this topic, my impression is that the celibates remain human beings, that is sexual beings, at least until awakening. This does not mean that they break their vows, of course, but that they practice with their sexuality. So a gay monk to me does not mean a sexually active gay monk, which would indeed be an oxymoron, but a celibate monk of gay sexual orientation.

*oh Brahma, I'm agreeing with Dan here*

Yes. Just consider how often straight monks and nuns talk about sex -- a lot. It's a standard theme, yet it goes by unnoticed because heterosexual relationships and heterosexual identity are "nothing special" so talking about them doesn't even register on most people's radar as something that would be out of line. It's when a person is coming from an "other than standard" sexuality that things can start to seem egregious.

[cappuccino]

Just consider how often straight monks and nuns talk about sex -- a lot.

asexual individuals may still experience attraction but

this attraction doesn't need to be realized in any sexual manner

[Dan74]

Having heard a number of monks and nuns on this topic, my impression is that the celibates remain human beings, that is sexual beings, at least until awakening. This does not mean that they break their vows, of course, but that they practice with their sexuality. So a gay monk to me does not mean a sexually active gay monk, which would indeed be an oxymoron, but a celibate monk of gay sexual orientation.

*oh Brahma, I'm agreeing with Dan here*

'tis one of the portends of the last days...

repent! repent!!

either that or a new beginning!