On the Existence of Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Srilankaputra
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Srilankaputra »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:59 pm Perhaps it should be noted that "atthi"/"exists" is an extremely general term.
Indeed, yes!
If there is desire, relishing, and craving for solid food, consciousness becomes established there and grows.
_Kabaḷīkāre ce, bhikkhave, āhāre atthi rāgo atthi nandī atthi taṇhā, patiṭṭhitaṃ tattha viññāṇaṃ virūḷhaṃ.

Where consciousness is established and grows, name and form are conceived.
_Yattha patiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ virūḷhaṃ, atthi tattha nāmarūpassa avakkanti.

Where name and form are conceived, there is the growth of choices.
_Yattha atthi nāmarūpassa avakkanti, atthi tattha saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi.

Where choices grow, there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.
_Yattha atthi saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi, atthi tattha āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti.

Where there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future, there is rebirth, old age, and death in the future.
_Yattha atthi āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti, atthi tattha āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ.

Where there is rebirth, old age, and death in the future, I say this is full of sorrow, anguish, and distress.
_Yattha atthi āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ, sasokaṃ taṃ, bhikkhave, sadaraṃ saupāyāsanti vadāmi.

If there is desire, relishing, and craving for contact as fuel …
_Phasse ce, bhikkhave, āhāre … pe …

If there is desire, relishing, and craving for mental intention as fuel …
_manosañcetanāya ce, bhikkhave, āhāre …

If there is desire, relishing, and craving for consciousness as fuel...
_viññāṇe ce, bhikkhave, āhāre...

[... ]

If there is no desire, relishing, and craving for solid food, consciousness does not become established there and doesn’t grow.
_Kabaḷīkāre ce, bhikkhave, āhāre natthi rāgo natthi nandī natthi taṇhā, appatiṭṭhitaṃ tattha viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ.

Where consciousness is not established and doesn’t grow, name and form are not conceived.
_Yattha appatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ, natthi tattha nāmarūpassa avakkanti.

Where name and form are not conceived, there is no growth of choices.
_Yattha natthi nāmarūpassa avakkanti, natthi tattha saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi.

Where choices don’t grow, there is no rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.
_Yattha natthi saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi, natthi tattha āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti.

Where there is no rebirth into a new state of existence in the future, there is no rebirth, old age, and death in the future.
_Yattha natthi āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti, natthi tattha āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ.

Where there is no rebirth, old age, and death in the future, I say there’s no sorrow, anguish, and distress.
_Yattha natthi āyatiṃ jātijarāmaraṇaṃ, asokaṃ taṃ, bhikkhave, adaraṃ anupāyāsanti vadāmi.

If there is no desire, relishing, and craving for contact as fuel …
_Phasse ce, bhikkhave, āhāre … pe …

If there is no desire, relishing, and craving for mental intention as fuel …
_manosañcetanāya ce, bhikkhave, āhāre …

If there is no desire, relishing, and craving for consciousness as fuel, consciousness...
_viññāṇe ce, bhikkhave, āhāre...
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.64/en/sujato

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
chownah
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by chownah »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 pm
Nibbana is not the world, so we can use 'atthi' for Nibbana.
Nibbana exists.
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
chownah
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AlexBrains92
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by AlexBrains92 »

chownah wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 pm
Nibbana is not the world, so we can use 'atthi' for Nibbana.
Nibbana exists.
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
chownah
For some reason you distinguish the word 'nibbana' from its synonyms, as if the word 'nibbana' in the suttas was the actual nibbana, and not just a word like its synonyms.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
Pulsar
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Pulsar »

Chownah wrote
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
Your sensibility, dear Chownah, if you keep it up, we will get closer to Nibbana, and come to understand that Nibbana is what the Sutta Nipata meant by Atammayata.
Yena yea hi mannati tato tam hoti annatha
for in whatever way they conceive the fact is ever other than that. It is not Pali, it is not English, it is just this language of Dhamma that need to be further clarified, and thanks for taking the trouble.
With love :candle:
PS I am pretty sure you understand Nibbana to be the end of suffering, regardless of how it is worded, by a zillion synonyms or just ten....What good are words, in the long run?
Last edited by Pulsar on Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:10 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 pm
Nibbana is not the world, so we can use 'atthi' for Nibbana.
Nibbana exists.
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
chownah
For some reason you distinguish the word 'nibbana' from its synonyms, as if the word 'nibbana' in the suttas was the actual nibbana, and not just a word like its synonyms.
:goodpost:

It’s a strange argument since these are clearly all synonyms. They are all describing one thing, namely Nibbana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:18 pm ...
C, here is good one. Not sure if this has been posted here:
SN 45.7 wrote:Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
In an exclusively negative description, there is still the element of both removal and destruction of greed, hate and delusion that can take on that positive quality in terms of the designation. I think it would be careless to call this negative element a remainder, as it is often called "remainderless":
AN 3.55 wrote:When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
But it would simply have to be what greed, hate and delusion "are not". Perhaps that is as far as the designation can go. Apologies if I am repeating, but I thought you would appreciate the directness of these two suttas.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:18 pm ...
C, here is good one. Not sure if this has been posted here:
SN 45.7 wrote:Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
In an exclusively negative description, there is still the element of both removal and destruction of greed, hate and delusion that can take on that positive quality in terms of the designation. I think it would be careless to call this negative element a remainder, as it is often called "remainderless":
AN 3.55 wrote:When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
But it would simply have to be what greed, hate and delusion "are not". Perhaps that is as far as the designation can go. Apologies if I am repeating, but I thought you would appreciate the directness of these two suttas.
It’s on coming to that Nibbana element that greed etc are destroyed. Notice that it says that Nibbana is “directly visible”. It’s always there, we just can’t see it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Pulsar »

It is written under OP 
"Analysis and synthesis are praised by the wise,
liberation in the Sāsana comes from analysis and synthesis;
the purpose of the method of analysis and synthesis is the ultimate"

Nāmarūpapariccheda
that is cute..."liberation comes from analysis and synthesis" Wise promoting the stuff of commentaries??? 
  • Did Buddha ever say anything remotely similar?
He presented Dhamma Vicaya (investigation) as the Second Factor of Enlightenment, but taking into consideration remaining enlightenment factors, it appears to me that this is accomplished through Mindfulness, Energy, Rapture, Tranquility, Samadhi, and Equanimity, all of which imply liberation is achieved via Right view... Right mindfulness, and Right Samadhi. Factor missing here, before Right deliverance, is Right Knowledge...(samma Nana)
  • Wrong view, thinking scholarly analysis and synthesis, can assist one through Right path? only delays the goal.
Wrong View leads to Wrong Samadhi and Wrong Knowledge (Micca Nana), blocks the Right deliverance (samma vimutti).
Here is Ven. Sona affirming this. Not summarizing the entire 12 min talk, Some hilights...
At 1.21...It is only real knowledge, from a buddhist point of view, if it changes you. There are well informed sufferers, very articulate sufferers. Buddha is not interested in those. He wants the result to be liberation.
At 8.01 Academic thinking? is not for Buddha, suffering and its end, nibbana in such a sense is the only concern of Buddha. It is well worth listening to the whole. You will get a feel for 10-fold path, that leads to Nibbana, as Buddha meant it to be.
Be well :candle:
 
chownah
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by chownah »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:10 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:09 pm
Nibbana is not the world, so we can use 'atthi' for Nibbana.
Nibbana exists.
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
chownah
For some reason you distinguish the word 'nibbana' from its synonyms, as if the word 'nibbana' in the suttas was the actual nibbana, and not just a word like its synonyms.
It seems to me that it is not my distinction.....it seems to me that it is the suttas's distinction.....it is the suttas which never use "atthi" in connection with "nibbana".

Tell me why do the suttas never use the word "atthi" in reference to the word "nibbana"? The pointer "atthi" is never used to designate "nibbana" in the suttas...
chownah
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Srilankaputra »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:18 pm ...
C, here is good one. Not sure if this has been posted here:
SN 45.7 wrote:Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”
In an exclusively negative description, there is still the element of both removal and destruction of greed, hate and delusion that can take on that positive quality in terms of the designation. I think it would be careless to call this negative element a remainder, as it is often called "remainderless":
AN 3.55 wrote:When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.”
But it would simply have to be what greed, hate and delusion "are not". Perhaps that is as far as the designation can go. Apologies if I am repeating, but I thought you would appreciate the directness of these two suttas.
If I may respond to this. These are two very good suttas that illustrate two senses of the word 'Nibbana' . It is like the English word 'extinguishment'. It can refer for example in the case of observing a fire going out, to the extinguishment of the fire and/or the concept of 'extinguishment' grasped by the mind. If you look at the Pali, in one sutta the word Nibbana is qualified as 'Sandiṭṭhika Nibbana' in the other as 'Nibbanadhatu'. In the case of 'Nibbanadhatu' as I understand Therevada holds that it is not a mere concept.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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SDC
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:48 pm It’s on coming to that Nibbana element that greed etc are destroyed. Notice that it says that Nibbana is “directly visible”. It’s always there, we just can’t see it.
And I think that is the real issue, and the absolute crux of what MN 1 describes. On account of the capacity to conceive, which is always "mine", it is simply a case of attempting to gain that percept. From that wrong view, nibbana is understood as an acquisition, i.e. something that simply needs to be discovered as a percept. That is the conceiving of it. It is clear later in MN 1, that "directly knows" is not in terms of perceiving. It isn't about perceiving it rightly, it is about knowing it rightly, on account of perceiving. In other words, discerning Rightly what that perception is not, Nibbana can be said to be available.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by SDC »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:37 pm If I may respond to this. These are two very good suttas that illustrate two senses of the word 'Nibbana' .
Yeah, always good to find such direct descriptions. :thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar
Wise promoting the stuff of commentaries??? Did Buddha ever say anything remotely similar?
The Buddha taught via breaking down the person into parts (analysis) as per the aggregates and also via the conditionality between these parts as per dependent origination (synthesis). In the Abhidhamma the method of analysis is found in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī whilst synthesis is found in the Paṭṭhāna. An over-reliance on analysis can lead to substance metaphysics as found with the Sarvāstivādins whilst an over-reliance on synthesis can lead to nihilism as with Nagarjuna. The middle way is that of analysis and synthesis in balance. Right View is a balanced view, not no view.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:38 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:48 pm It’s on coming to that Nibbana element that greed etc are destroyed. Notice that it says that Nibbana is “directly visible”. It’s always there, we just can’t see it.
And I think that is the real issue, and the absolute crux of what MN 1 describes. On account of the capacity to conceive, which is always "mine", it is simply a case of attempting to gain that percept. From that wrong view, nibbana is understood as an acquisition, i.e. something that simply needs to be discovered as a percept. That is the conceiving of it. It is clear later in MN 1, that "directly knows" is not in terms of perceiving. It isn't about perceiving it rightly, it is about knowing it rightly, on account of perceiving. In other words, discerning Rightly what that perception is not, Nibbana can be said to be available.
Stating that something exists isn’t conceiving it in the Dhamma. Saying it’s me or belongs to me is. It’s the desire and lust that is the problem, not ontological thinking per se.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
chownah
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Re: On the Existence of Nibbana

Post by chownah »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:18 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:10 pm
chownah wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
Certainly you can use whatever words you want to use but it seems that the suttas never use "atthi" with "nibbana". You can declare "Nibbana exists." but that is just your fabrication and the suttas never say that.
chownah
For some reason you distinguish the word 'nibbana' from its synonyms, as if the word 'nibbana' in the suttas was the actual nibbana, and not just a word like its synonyms.
:goodpost:

It’s a strange argument since these are clearly all synonyms. They are all describing one thing, namely Nibbana.
I don't think that I have presented an argument. I think I have pointed out something which is not found in the suttas namely the word "atthi" used in connection with "nibbana" is not found in the suttas. I would call this an "assertion" rather than an "argument".....regardless of what you want to call it do you take issue with the assertion that the word "atthi" is never used in the suttas in connection with the word "nibbana"?
chownah
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