arguments against killing in self-defense

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dylanj
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arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by dylanj »

for the purpose of this thread please only reply in accordance with the buddha's teaching that one should not kill even to save their own life or that of another

this is a very hard thing to convince people of

i'd like to see arguments for it

perhaps to an extent it's totally reliant on rebirth & kamma but i'd like to see attempts at arguing for it independent of that, as well as thru the larger kammic perspective

i tried to explain to a friend last night in terms of it not being worth sacrificing your virtue or negatively conditioning your mind, didn't go very well

but i feel it should be possible to explain how the results of such an act will ultimately be negative even within the present life
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by confusedlayman »

dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 am for the purpose of this thread please only reply in accordance with the buddha's teaching that one should not kill even to save their own life or that of another

this is a very hard thing to convince people of

i'd like to see arguments for it

perhaps to an extent it's totally reliant on rebirth & kamma but i'd like to see attempts at arguing for it independent of that, as well as thru the larger kammic perspective

i tried to explain to a friend last night in terms of it not being worth sacrificing your virtue or negatively conditioning your mind, didn't go very well

but i feel it should be possible to explain how the results of such an act will ultimately be negative even within the present life
If there is some self and u need to protect its logical to some extent but all u want to protect is just mere fleeting process and while doing self defence, there is arising of anger or killing intention which will condition further suffering...

killing in self defence comes from wrong view taking any of the 5 agg to be self... in right view there is no running or self defence just stay and observe the getting attack process.. after all its clouds passing away and becoming rain.. we dont care if clouds remain in sky or change to water.. why care about change in aggregates?

thats why we need to not act in self defence through rightview. People holding to wrong view will take intentional action to save this aggregates which are suffering itself at present as well as continue in future. its easy to type but difficult to follow unless one in arhant or anagami

you cannot convince the above point to puthujana.. only 4 stagers or people trying to attain 1st stage can comprehend properly atleast at intellectual level
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by form »

No. Even if someone wete to cut off your limps one by one, u are not to have any aversion. This is in the sutta.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:25 am No. Even if someone wete to cut off your limps one by one, u are not to have any aversion. This is in the sutta.
yes..
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:31 am
form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:25 am No. Even if someone wete to cut off your limps one by one, u are not to have any aversion. This is in the sutta.
yes..
zez

I have heard this story that when a python was rapping round a person who could have cut the python with his knife in the hand, he did not do so. This was in order to save the python's life, and died in the event. He then giving off his life is reborn in a higher realm in his next life. ( I do not remember the context of this story).
Self defence does not mean defending ones body. But it means defending ones morality through descipline as done by
Zen masters in Chinese temples. From childhood in Chinese Shaolin temples martial arts in self descipline is meant to train desciplined called sila ( in budda damma) and in daily routines. Meditation as Ana Pana is given a high routine in training. Giving up desires too is part of Zen training. For Chinese Shaolin maters Zen is dyana or Jana as in Theravada.
Further we killing may be an easier and shorter possibility. In most cases killing is often done with hatred. If one with developed metta ( loving kindness) desires killing can be avoided . With my personnel experience , happy to say that I lived (1965-1969) in jungles of Sri Lanka and was never confronted by wild beasts. With proper planning one can avoid situations of life threatening experiences.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:52 am
confusedlayman wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:31 am
form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:25 am No. Even if someone wete to cut off your limps one by one, u are not to have any aversion. This is in the sutta.
yes..

I have heard this story that when a python was rapping round a person who could have cut the python with his knife in the hand, he did not do so. This was in order to save the python's life, and died in the event. He then giving off his life is reborn in a higher realm in his next life. ( I do not remember the context of this story).
Self defence does not mean defending ones body. But it means defending ones morality through descipline as done by
Zen masters in Chinese temples. From childhood in Chinese Shaolin temples martial arts in self descipline is meant to train desciplined called sila ( in budda damma) and in daily routines. Meditation as Ana Pana is given a high routine in training. Giving up desires too is part of Zen training. For Chinese Shaolin maters Zen is dyana or Jana as in Theravada.
Further we killing may be an easier and shorter possibility. In most cases killing is often done with hatred. If one with developed metta ( loving kindness) desires killing can be avoided . With my personnel experience , happy to say that I lived (1965-1969) in jungles of Sri Lanka and was never confronted by wild beasts. With proper planning one can avoid situations of life threatening experiences.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by DooDoot »

dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 am for the purpose of this thread please only reply in accordance with the buddha's teaching that one should not kill even to save their own life or that of another
teaching given to monks - MN 21
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 amthis is a very hard thing to convince people of
how can people be convinced with what is untrue & illogical?
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 ami'd like to see arguments for it
none
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 amperhaps to an extent it's totally reliant on rebirth & kamma
rebirth follows the intention of the kamma
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 am but i'd like to see attempts at arguing for it independent of that
well, obviously killing in self-defense will be stressful, at least in the short term
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 ami tried to explain to a friend last night in terms of it not being worth sacrificing your virtue or negatively conditioning your mind, didn't go very well
yep... the law of kamma deems you would have the nasty & failed rebirth described above. the hell you experienced was due to your wrong view
dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 ambut i feel it should be possible to explain how the results of such an act will ultimately be negative even within the present life
sounds like virtue signalling with what is not possible. If u wish to insist on maintaining Vinaya level non-killing then probably u should 1st insist on & maintain Vinaya level celibacy first. :smile:
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by form »

But it is very hard to have no strong reaction with one's life is endangered. We will just try our best according to our present capability. One of the thing that is stressed at times by the Buddha is also to be natural in the practice.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:01 am But it is very hard to have no strong reaction with one's life is endangered. We will just try our best according to our present capability. One of the thing that is stressed at times by the Buddha is also to be natural in the practice.
This is the reason of living a pre-planned life , with a practise of metta. As heard Bodhidarma who had originated self defence did so, as a method of defending villages with trained physical limbs, and with techniques. Shaolin monks train in such a manner. The reason for such skills developed was because the kings and rulers prohibited keeping and using weapons. Hence the ulterior motive of self defence was to defend foods and possessions of robbers.
Karate too means bear hands, technically. I very much doubt that the intentions of training in self defence systems was never killing another person.
As I wrote earlier in this post, one can live a planned life with developed metta , even in a jungle, ( as I did some years ago).
A skilled person can know and avoid , threats, as with wild beasts or wild people. When I had to live in a jungle with wild beasts, I hired a hunter, not to hunt , but because he knew the exact locations when and where wild beasts walk about.
At the same time, it was appropriate to meditate , metta bhavana each morning.
Self defence and killing with self defence are two inappropriate and wrong terms, while Lord budda two used methods in defence, but not with physical ability but with dyana. The taming of various demons and Angulimala was done by budda, with dyana.
Though may not have been true, but exhibits taming serpents by an actor with meditation in this film called Kung Fu.
Killing with Kung Fu was introduced by Bruce Lee, to the west.
Meditation specially, Ana Pana sati, is practised in all Shaolin temples in their training.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:01 am But it is very hard to have no strong reaction with one's life is endangered. We will just try our best according to our present capability. One of the thing that is stressed at times by the Buddha is also to be natural in the practice.
This is the reason of living a pre-planned life , with a practise of metta. As heard Bodhidarma who had originated self defence did so, as a method of defending villages with trained physical limbs, and with techniques. Shaolin monks train in such a manner. The reason for such skills developed was because the kings and rulers prohibited keeping and using weapons. Hence the ulterior motive of self defence was to defend foods and possessions of robbers.
Karate too means bear hands, technically. I very much doubt that the intentions of training in self defence systems was never killing another person.
As I wrote earlier in this post, one can live a planned life with developed metta , even in a jungle, ( as I did some years ago).
A skilled person can know and avoid , threats, as with wild beasts or wild people. When I had to live in a jungle with wild beasts, I hired a hunter, not to hunt , but because he knew the exact locations when and where wild beasts walk about.
At the same time, it was appropriate to meditate , metta bhavana each morning.
Self defence and killing with self defence are two inappropriate and wrong terms, while Lord budda too used methods in defence, but not with physical ability but with dyana. The taming of various demons and Angulimala was done by budda, with dyana.
Though may not have been true, but exhibits taming serpents by an actor with meditation in this film called Kung Fu.
Killing with Kung Fu was introduced by Bruce Lee, to the west.
Meditation specially, Ana Pana sati, is practised in all Shaolin temples in their training.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by confusedlayman »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:13 pm
form wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:01 am But it is very hard to have no strong reaction with one's life is endangered. We will just try our best according to our present capability. One of the thing that is stressed at times by the Buddha is also to be natural in the practice.
This is the reason of living a pre-planned life , with a practise of metta. As heard Bodhidarma who had originated self defence did so, as a method of defending villages with trained physical limbs, and with techniques. Shaolin monks train in such a manner. The reason for such skills developed was because the kings and rulers prohibited keeping and using weapons. Hence the ulterior motive of self defence was to defend foods and possessions of robbers.
Karate too means bear hands, technically. I very much doubt that the intentions of training in self defence systems was never killing another person.
As I wrote earlier in this post, one can live a planned life with developed metta , even in a jungle, ( as I did some years ago).
A skilled person can know and avoid , threats, as with wild beasts or wild people. When I had to live in a jungle with wild beasts, I hired a hunter, not to hunt , but because he knew the exact locations when and where wild beasts walk about.
At the same time, it was appropriate to meditate , metta bhavana each morning.
Self defence and killing with self defence are two inappropriate and wrong terms, while Lord budda two used methods in defence, but not with physical ability but with dyana. The taming of various demons and Angulimala was done by budda, with dyana.
Though may not have been true, but exhibits taming serpents by an actor with meditation in this film called Kung Fu.
Killing with Kung Fu was introduced by Bruce Lee, to the west.
Meditation specially, Ana Pana sati, is practised in all Shaolin temples in their training.
buddha never used self defence. he got hit by devadatta rock , moggalana escaped but didnt fight back or shout for help, when japanese monestry was burnt in 15th century i think monks radiated love while in fire and didnt even abuse (source needed or ignore this statement)

Bodhidharma thought kung fu because he learnt it before becoming buddhist monk and he thought to maintain shaloin monk to have fitness physically as they were too slim and lazy... bodhidharma kung fu is not for voilence ... it became voilance because of other needs to protect the tradition by mahayana monks
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by SteRo »

dylanj wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:32 am for the purpose of this thread please only reply in accordance with the buddha's teaching that one should not kill even to save their own life or that of another
The word "should" seems to exclude other than moral arguments or arguments of precept. Since the precepts are clear what is there to argue about?
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ . (This is the esoteric essence of the yoga of continuous flow which is no different from the universal flux of materiality. Therefore exoteric natural science provides vital guidelines.) अञ्जलि वागीश्वर
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by salayatananirodha »

killing and self-defense are different. killing is a poor form of self-defense, doesn't work
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

:goodpost:
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:00 am killing and self-defense are different. killing is a poor form of self-defense, doesn't work
:goodpost:
A very good analysis though short.
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Re: arguments against killing in self-defense

Post by justindesilva »

:goodpost:
salayatananirodha wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:00 am killing and self-defense are different. killing is a poor form of self-defense, doesn't work
:goodpost:
A very good analysis though short.
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