Question about Evidence of Nibanna

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konchy
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Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by konchy »

Hi all,

Need some help with this issue which has been bugging me for months if not years. So far everyone I've asked either don't know or have not given a satisfactory answer. All the suttas I've read on accesstoinsight website don't have an answer either.

My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?

If there is truly a permanent Nibanna, then given the appearance of Buddhas every now and then throughout these repeating world cycles, the number of beings should have reached zero. A simple analogy would be there is a pond filled with a thousand fishes. THe fishes represent every being there is in the universe. Every now and then a fish is removed. Sooner or later, the pond should have no more fishes.

The most common answer which I've received is that it's not an important question. Personally, I think this is flawed. Everything the Buddha has taught leads towards Nibanna. Nibanna is the most important thing in Buddhism but somehow, the evidence of Nibanna is ignored? This is the kind of response you would expect from a devout Christian when you tell them that there is no evidence of God.

Another common answer I've received is the number of beings is infinite. Personally I think this is also flawed. Just because it's currently beyond human capability to count them doesn't mean it's infinite. Even the number of atoms in the universe is finite, it's just a matter of counting.

Which leaves us with these possibilities:-
A) Nibanna does not work.
B) Nibanna works but the effects of Unbinding are not permanent. Meaning that the being that experiences Nibanna eventually comes back into the samsaric cycle.
C) the number of beings in the universe are replenished.


Thanks very much.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is another possibility:

D) the number of beings in existence are infinite.

The fish in your pond are of a limited set number.

As for evidence, there isn't any until you know for yourself. Until you first glimpse nibbana at the stage of stream-entry you have to have faith (saddha) that nibbana exists and that the Buddha's teachings can get you there.

If there were evidence of Nibbana that could be shared with 3rd parties then everyone would be a Buddhist.
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature.

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

If every day a penny was removed from circulation……

No one would even notice.
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DNS
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

Which is more likely to occur:

a) a being attains parinibbana
b) someone is born

Of course it's b) several per second and then if you add animals, even several thousand or million per second.

The Buddha did not answer if the universe is infinite or finite, but we could assume it is infinite, just from the study of astronomy, we cannot see an end or edge to the universe. Planets and solar systems form and evolve, perish and reconstitute over thousands of light years in time.
konchy
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by konchy »

DNS wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:22 pm Which is more likely to occur:

a) a being attains parinibbana
b) someone is born

Of course it's b) several per second and then if you add animals, even several thousand or million per second.

The Buddha did not answer if the universe is infinite or finite, but we could assume it is infinite, just from the study of astronomy, we cannot see an end or edge to the universe. Planets and solar systems form and evolve, perish and reconstitute over thousands of light years in time.

a) beings attaining parinibanna happens on a regular basis every world cycle/ aeons, and deducts from the number of beings in the universe.
b) someone being born is continuation of the consciousness from their previous lives. The number of beings in the universe neither increases nor decreases. Unless somehow the previous consciousness multiplies in the case of identical twins? Sorry, don't even know if this is feasible.
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cappuccino
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DNS
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:08 pm The number of beings in the universe neither increases nor decreases.
According to who? Not the Buddha, he made it one of the unconjectures.

Maybe the number of beings does increase.
dharmacorps
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by dharmacorps »

The question is flawed on many levels. For instance, many being are non-percipient with non-physical forms. That pretty much makes this an imponderable question from your mathematical approach.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

Being itself is wrong assumption...
dont think
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:57 pm Being itself is wrong assumption...
Correct, I was thinking of mentioning that in my post too, since the issue of 'not enough souls' is not an issue with Buddhism since it holds there is no soul. But I didn't mention that, knowing the OP would write back with something like "then what is reborn?" And then we'd get into another anatta, self and no-self debate.
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cappuccino
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: Buddhism … holds there is no soul.
where?
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:10 am
DNS wrote: Buddhism … holds there is no soul.
where?
toldjaso (that this would turn into a self, no self, not self debate)

Body is not self, feelings are not self, perception is not self, mental constructs are not self and consciousness is not self…When one sees this one becomes detached from these things, being detached the passions fade, when the passions have faded one is free, and being free one knows one is free’ (Samyutta Nikaya 3. 66)
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cappuccino
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

DNS wrote: not self…
self … isn't soul
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by SteRo »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?
"Evidence" is a sign as a basis for syllogistic inference: "This is nibbana because of that sign/evidence" OR "Nibbana exists because of that sign/evidence."
There can't be such an evidence because nibbana is signless.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 am nibbana is signless.
wrong... wrong view... wrong doctrine... wrong forum

this forum is General Theravāda discussion and not General Mahayana papanca mannati

the signless does not appear below:
“Mendicants, I will teach you the undefiled …
“Anāsavañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anāsavagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anāsavaṃ … pe …. (3)

the truth …
Saccañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi saccagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, saccaṃ … pe …. (4)

the far shore …
Pārañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi pāragāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, pāraṃ … pe …. (5)

the subtle …
Nipuṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nipuṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, nipuṇaṃ … pe …. (6)

the very hard to see …
Sududdasañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi sududdasagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, sududdasaṃ … pe …. (7)

the unaging …
Ajajjarañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi ajajjaragāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, ajajjaraṃ … pe …. (8)

the constant …
Dhuvañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi dhuvagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, dhuvaṃ … pe …. (9)

the not falling apart …
Apalokitañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi apalokitagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, apalokitaṃ … pe …. (10)

the invisible …
Anidassanañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anidassanagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anidassanaṃ … pe …. (11)

the unproliferated …
Nippapañcañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nippapañcagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, nippapañcaṃ … pe …? (12)

the peaceful …
Santañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi santagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, santaṃ … pe …. (13)

the deathless …
Amatañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi amatagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, amataṃ … pe …. (14)

the sublime …
Paṇītañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi paṇītagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, paṇītaṃ … pe …. (15)

the state of grace …
Sivañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi sivagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, sivaṃ … pe …. (16)

the sanctuary …
Khemañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi khemagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, khemaṃ … pe …. (17)

the ending of craving …
Taṇhākkhayañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi taṇhākkhayagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, taṇhākkhayaṃ … pe …? (18)

the incredible …
Acchariyañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi acchariyagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, acchariyaṃ … pe …. (19)

the amazing …
Abbhutañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi abbhutagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, abbhutaṃ … pe …. (20)

the untroubled …
Anītikañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anītikagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anītikaṃ … pe …. (21)

the not liable to trouble …
Anītikadhammañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anītikadhammagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anītikadhammaṃ … pe …. (22)

extinguishment …
Nibbānañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nibbānagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, nibbānaṃ … pe …. (23)

the unafflicted …
Abyābajjhañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi abyābajjhagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, abyābajjhaṃ … pe …. (24)

dispassion …
Virāgañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi virāgagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, virāgo … pe …? (25)

purity …
Suddhiñca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi suddhigāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, suddhi … pe …. (26)

freedom …
Muttiñca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi muttigāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, mutti … pe …. (27)

not adhering …
Anālayañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anālayagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anālayo … pe …. (28)

the island …
Dīpañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi dīpagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, dīpaṃ … pe …. (29)

the protection …
Leṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi leṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, leṇaṃ … pe …. (30)

the shelter …
Tāṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi tāṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, tāṇaṃ … pe …. (31)

the refuge …”
Saraṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi saraṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, saraṇaṃ … pe …. (32)

Bāttiṃsatimaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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