Question about Evidence of Nibanna

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DooDoot
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DooDoot »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?
The suttas say:
When one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.55/en/bodhi
:candle:
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmIf there is truly a permanent Nibanna, then given the appearance of Buddhas every now and then throughout these repeating world cycles, the number of beings should have reached zero.
Why? Are you suggesting all people can understand the teachings of the Buddhas?
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmEverything the Buddha has taught leads towards Nibanna.
The above appears incorrect. MN 117, for example, appears to say everything the Buddha taught does not lead towards Nibbana.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Nibanna is the most important thing in Buddhism but somehow, the evidence of Nibanna is ignored?
The only evidence for Nibbana appears to be when it is realised.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmThis is the kind of response you would expect from a devout Christian when you tell them that there is no evidence of God.
The above analogy appears not applicable. It seems Nibbana can be realised by some people but these people cannot show it to other people who don't realise it. Where as a personal god cannot be realised.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmAnother common answer I've received is the number of beings is infinite.
The above sounds like Mahayana and not Theravada.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Which leaves us with these possibilities:-
A) Nibanna does not work.
The suttas say when the mind is free from greed, hatred & delusion, Nibbana works.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmB) Nibanna works but the effects of Unbinding are not permanent.
The sutta say Nibbana is permanent for an arahant; eg MN 22, MN 140, etc.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Meaning that the being that experiences Nibanna eventually comes back into the samsaric cycle.
No, not arahants.
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pmC) the number of beings in the universe are replenished.
Why? Are you suggesting all people can understand the teachings of the Buddhas & attain Nibbana? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:08 am
SteRo wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 am nibbana is signless.
wrong... wrong view... wrong doctrine... wrong forum

this forum is General Theravāda discussion and not General Mahayana papanca mannati

the signless does not appear below:
“Mendicants, I will teach you the undefiled …
“Anāsavañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anāsavagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anāsavaṃ … pe …. (3)

the truth …
Saccañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi saccagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, saccaṃ … pe …. (4)

the far shore …
Pārañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi pāragāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, pāraṃ … pe …. (5)

the subtle …
Nipuṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nipuṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, nipuṇaṃ … pe …. (6)

the very hard to see …
Sududdasañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi sududdasagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, sududdasaṃ … pe …. (7)

the unaging …
Ajajjarañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi ajajjaragāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, ajajjaraṃ … pe …. (8)

the constant …
Dhuvañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi dhuvagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, dhuvaṃ … pe …. (9)

the not falling apart …
Apalokitañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi apalokitagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, apalokitaṃ … pe …. (10)

the invisible …
Anidassanañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anidassanagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anidassanaṃ … pe …. (11)

the unproliferated …
Nippapañcañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nippapañcagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, nippapañcaṃ … pe …? (12)

the peaceful …
Santañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi santagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, santaṃ … pe …. (13)

the deathless …
Amatañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi amatagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, amataṃ … pe …. (14)

the sublime …
Paṇītañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi paṇītagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, paṇītaṃ … pe …. (15)

the state of grace …
Sivañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi sivagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, sivaṃ … pe …. (16)

the sanctuary …
Khemañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi khemagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, khemaṃ … pe …. (17)

the ending of craving …
Taṇhākkhayañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi taṇhākkhayagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamañca, bhikkhave, taṇhākkhayaṃ … pe …? (18)

the incredible …
Acchariyañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi acchariyagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, acchariyaṃ … pe …. (19)

the amazing …
Abbhutañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi abbhutagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, abbhutaṃ … pe …. (20)

the untroubled …
Anītikañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anītikagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anītikaṃ … pe …. (21)

the not liable to trouble …
Anītikadhammañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anītikadhammagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, anītikadhammaṃ … pe …. (22)

extinguishment …
Nibbānañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi nibbānagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, nibbānaṃ … pe …. (23)

the unafflicted …
Abyābajjhañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi abyābajjhagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, abyābajjhaṃ … pe …. (24)

dispassion …
Virāgañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi virāgagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha.
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, virāgo … pe …? (25)

purity …
Suddhiñca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi suddhigāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, suddhi … pe …. (26)

freedom …
Muttiñca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi muttigāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, mutti … pe …. (27)

not adhering …
Anālayañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi anālayagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamo ca, bhikkhave, anālayo … pe …. (28)

the island …
Dīpañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi dīpagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, dīpaṃ … pe …. (29)

the protection …
Leṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi leṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, leṇaṃ … pe …. (30)

the shelter …
Tāṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi tāṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, tāṇaṃ … pe …. (31)

the refuge …”
Saraṇañca vo, bhikkhave, desessāmi saraṇagāmiñca maggaṃ.
Taṃ suṇātha. Katamañca, bhikkhave, saraṇaṃ … pe …. (32)

Bāttiṃsatimaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn43.14-43/en/sujato
Is buddha talking about the background blackness and blankness on which all the impermanent happens?
dont think
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DooDoot
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

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confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:37 am Is buddha talking about the background blackness and blankness on which all the impermanent happens?
obviously not. it seems u did not read the Buddha's teaching but appeared to ignore it. instead, it seems u are imagining (mannati) Hindu 'Brahman'. it seems the Buddha above is referring to the signs of Nibbana, such as below, referring to the signs to Nibbana:
So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence, attuned the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there picked up this sign (nimittaṃ). Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: “Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.” And thus Ven. Sona became another one of the arahants.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.55/en/thanissaro
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:42 am
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:37 am Is buddha talking about the background blackness and blankness on which all the impermanent happens?
obviously not. it seems u did not read the Buddha's teaching but appeared to ignore it. instead, it seems u are imagining (mannati) Hindu 'Brahman'. it seems the Buddha above is referring to the signs of Nibbana, such as below, referring to the signs to Nibbana:
So after that, Ven. Sona determined the right pitch for his persistence, attuned the pitch of the [five] faculties [to that], and there picked up his sign (nimittaṃ). Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: “Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.” And thus Ven. Sona became another one of the arahants.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.55/en/thanissaro
i think its good not to speak of nibbana as buddha himself never spoke in absolute terms... so i wish everyone all the best...
dont think
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:47 am i think its good not to speak of nibbana as buddha himself never spoke in absolute terms...
The above appears very wrong, without evidence. It seems the Buddha spoke of Nibbana in the most absolute of absolute terms. It sounds like u have a wrong teacher causing wrong view.
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:47 amso i wish everyone all the best...
That sounds impossible. Wrong view does not sound like it is the best but, instead, the worst. :?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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perkele
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by perkele »

DNS wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:41 pm
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:08 pm The number of beings in the universe neither increases nor decreases.
According to who? Not the Buddha, he made it one of the unconjectures.
Not exactly clear, IMO, but I think it is a reasonable interpretation of this category of "unconjecturable" questions:
AN 4.77: Acintita Sutta wrote:"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.
Maybe pondering about of what kind of speculation exactly would or would not fall into that category does also belong to that same category of unconjecturable questions? :thinking:

I already feel the madness and vexation coming my way... :rolleye:
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by pops »

konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?
I thought a while about your question an find the following answer useful. The teachings of buddha (and therfore the existence of the speaker) could they maybe be a 'direct evidence', that Nibbana is possible?

Maybe that direct evidence lies directly in front of you but you are just not able to understand the evidence.

-

'Direct evidence' correctly undertood can only be ones own insight/experience.

So when you ask 'where' one could say: (the evidence for the possibilty of) absence of dependent perception and the end of suffering lies at the end of the eightfold path. And when you are there you will know that/acknowledge 'the direct evidence'.

I suppose you think of a 'direct evidence' like one would think of a 'direct evidence' that for example birds can fly. When you think like that, remember: you must have seen a bird flying for yourself. Otherwise you wouldn't know for sure.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by Bundokji »

Associating Nibbana with permanence is not appreciating the complexity of the human dilemma. Human behavior can no less be described accurately through the desire to annihilate then the desire to continue. To put it differently, both death as the end or an endless cycle of birth and death present imperfect scenarios to the human mind.

As for your mathematical hypothesis, it reminds me of an analogy by Ven. Dhammanando. For a game of chess to end within a finite number of moves, there must be rational players. Our inability to think outside the duality of existence and non-existence is akin to two players moving the horse one step forward and one step back indefinitely, so the game continues indefinitely.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

Bundokji wrote: Associating Nibbana with permanence is not appreciating the complexity of the human dilemma.
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,

the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,

the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by Bundokji »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:51 pm
Bundokji wrote: Associating Nibbana with permanence is not appreciating the complexity of the human dilemma.
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,

the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,

the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Or a mere fantasy for those who have not attained it.

Thanks for sharing :anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:17 pm As for your mathematical hypothesis, it reminds me of an analogy by Ven. Dhammanando. For a game of chess to end within a finite number of moves, there must be rational players. Our inability to think outside the duality of existence and non-existence is akin to two players moving the horse one step forward and one step back indefinitely, so the game continues indefinitely.
I like the chess analogy. Another point I made in the other threads on this subject is:

Imagine attaining nibbana as requiring an ELO (chess rating) of 2800 or more. You could have a planet of chimpanzees playing all day and night for an infinite time and none of them will reach that ELO rating. They might 'accidentally' play a game with that strength, but it wouldn't be real, it would just be blind luck, not the cognitive level of Magnus Carlsen (current champion, peak rating of 2882).
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by cappuccino »

Buddhism isn't a game


Rather it's a confrontation with reality
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by DNS »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:34 pm Buddhism isn't a game
It's an analogy, not to be taken literally. (the chess analogy)
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by Dan74 »

Hi konchy :hello:

I think Buddhist cosmology teaches that there are different worlds, so we can't really keep tally of beings, since we only see our world, and very imprefectly at that!

For me the evidence for Nibbana comes from practice. Even a very lazy and flawed human being like me can have a taste of it. Just need to focus your efforts, get good guidance and follow it.

Good luck!

_/|\_
konchy wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm Hi all,

Need some help with this issue which has been bugging me for months if not years. So far everyone I've asked either don't know or have not given a satisfactory answer. All the suttas I've read on accesstoinsight website don't have an answer either.

My question is: Where is the direct evidence for Nibanna?

If there is truly a permanent Nibanna, then given the appearance of Buddhas every now and then throughout these repeating world cycles, the number of beings should have reached zero. A simple analogy would be there is a pond filled with a thousand fishes. THe fishes represent every being there is in the universe. Every now and then a fish is removed. Sooner or later, the pond should have no more fishes.

The most common answer which I've received is that it's not an important question. Personally, I think this is flawed. Everything the Buddha has taught leads towards Nibanna. Nibanna is the most important thing in Buddhism but somehow, the evidence of Nibanna is ignored? This is the kind of response you would expect from a devout Christian when you tell them that there is no evidence of God.

Another common answer I've received is the number of beings is infinite. Personally I think this is also flawed. Just because it's currently beyond human capability to count them doesn't mean it's infinite. Even the number of atoms in the universe is finite, it's just a matter of counting.

Which leaves us with these possibilities:-
A) Nibanna does not work.
B) Nibanna works but the effects of Unbinding are not permanent. Meaning that the being that experiences Nibanna eventually comes back into the samsaric cycle.
C) the number of beings in the universe are replenished.


Thanks very much.
_/|\_
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Re: Question about Evidence of Nibanna

Post by chownah »

I don't think you should look for evidence of nibanna....I think you should look for the total lack of evidence for anything for nibanna.
chownah
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