Is oneness same as nothingness?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by pegembara »

"Oneness" or sunnata is the same as no-thingness or no individual essence or anatta. It is not nothingness. It is not the opposite of all is not mine ie. all is me, mine, myself! "One" simply cannot liberate all "beings" from samsara.
Therefore, wherever the doctrine of the egolessness of all existence is rejected, there the Buddha's word is rejected. But wherever, through penetration of the egolessness of all existence, the ego-vanity has reached ultimate extinction, there the goal of the Buddha's teaching has been realized, namely: freedom from all vanity of I and Mine, and the highest peace of Nibbaana.

Egolessness (Anatta)
by Nyanatiloka Mahathera
"'Void world, void world' is said, Lord. In what way is 'void world' said?" — "It is because of what is void of self or self's property that 'void world' is said, Aananda. And what is void of self or self's property? The eye... forms... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... any feeling, whether pleasant or unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant, that arises born of eye-contact, is void of self or self's property (and likewise with the other five bases)."

— S. XXXV, 85 vol. iv, 54
"What is perception of not-self? Here a bhikkhu, gone to the forest, or to the root of a tree, or to a room that is void, considers thus: "Eye is not self, forms are not self, ear... sounds... nose... odors... tongue... flavours... body... tangibles... mind... ideas are not self. That is how he abides contemplating not-self in these six in-oneself-and-external bases."

— A. X. 60/vol. v, 109
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... golessness
‘Even now, Ananda, I am one who is much devoted to abiding in emptiness.’
Have I heard this correctly, grasped [learned] this correctly, attended to this correctly, remembered
this correctly?”
“Certainly, Ananda, you have heard it correctly, grasped [learned] it correctly, attended to it correctly,
remembered it correctly. As before, Ananda, so do I now often abide in emptiness.

The Lesser Discourse on Emptiness
Last edited by pegembara on Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:57 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:48 pm Why
Why. Nothingness is not a concept. This idea is the puthujjana doctrine of the puthujjana Nagarjuna.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Nothingness occurs when there are no more salient objects to perceive because the mind has become so pure with very refined samadhi; so the mind perceives: "There is nothing". After this, the mind stops perceiving.

A "concept" is always a concept about something. For example, the concept of "water" is about water. Water itself is not the concept. When you want to take a bath and clean the dirt from your body, it is not a concept cleaning the dirt from your body. When you are thirsty and need to drink water; it is not a concept quenching your thirst. Nothingness is the same. Nothingness is a thing but not the concept.

The Buddha did not ever teach things are merely concepts. Your doctrine is Mahayana; which is wrong view. This false ideology is SteRo ideology and Nagarjuna foolishness. Nagarjuna was puthujjana. The Buddha taught the PEACEFULNESS & JOY of ending five hindrances. Nagarjuna cannot end the five hindrances.
U r wrong ... nothiness s not object ... it is concept as u can perceive nothingness but cant cut it and use it somewhere
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sentinel
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by sentinel »

Kinca is something , akinca is no something or thing-less . I dont know pali for oneness , someone may be able to help .
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DooDoot
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:28 am U r wrong ... nothiness s not object ... it is concept as u can perceive nothingness but cant cut it and use it somewhere
It is an object & abiding. The suttas teach about mental objects (ayatana). Your concepts are Mahayana; just like your avatar. :smile:
ākiñcaññāyatana
neuter
the sphere or stage of (the awareness of) nothingness, i.e.

the third of the arūpa states of existence; and.
the state of awareness of nothingness, the third arūpajhāna or one of the vimokkhas (see ākiñcañña)

https://suttacentral.net/define/%C4%81k ... 4%81yatana
āyatana
neuter (& m.)

resting-place, abode; source; region, sphere, field, area.
transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation.
sphere of perception, the sense-organs (including mind) and their objects.

https://suttacentral.net/define/%C4%81yatana
Nothingness is a peaceful abiding: :meditate:
Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled and decided in that perception of the dimension of nothingness.

Tassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññāya cittaṃ pakkhandati pasīdati santiṭṭhati adhimuccati.

MN 121
Nothingness is a liberation:
And what is the heart’s release through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the heart’s release through nothingness.

MN 43
Nothingness is touched or witnessed by the whole body of consciousness & mind:
Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel.

AN 9.43
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:47 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:28 am U r wrong ... nothiness s not object ... it is concept as u can perceive nothingness but cant cut it and use it somewhere
It is an object & abiding. The suttas teach about mental objects (ayatana). Your concepts are Mahayana; just like your avatar. :smile:
ākiñcaññāyatana
neuter
the sphere or stage of (the awareness of) nothingness, i.e.

the third of the arūpa states of existence; and.
the state of awareness of nothingness, the third arūpajhāna or one of the vimokkhas (see ākiñcañña)

https://suttacentral.net/define/%C4%81k ... 4%81yatana
āyatana
neuter (& m.)

resting-place, abode; source; region, sphere, field, area.
transcendental sphere, plane of experience; transcendental state of mind in meditation.
sphere of perception, the sense-organs (including mind) and their objects.

https://suttacentral.net/define/%C4%81yatana
Nothingness is a peaceful abiding: :meditate:
Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled and decided in that perception of the dimension of nothingness.

Tassa ākiñcaññāyatanasaññāya cittaṃ pakkhandati pasīdati santiṭṭhati adhimuccati.

MN 121
Nothingness is a liberation:
And what is the heart’s release through nothingness? It’s when a mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness. This is called the heart’s release through nothingness.

MN 43
Nothingness is touched or witnessed by the whole body of consciousness & mind:
Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as a bodily witness, though with a sequel.

AN 9.43
wrong!

there is no one to attain notthingness.. it is very contradictory of what you said. perception of nothingness and taking it as habit is differrent from living in that place as nothingness is known by perception and there is no way something can become nothing.

during nothingness jhana, body perception is not there.
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:17 am wrong!
the buddha & suttas are not wrong. lol - u post here u can't even meditate yet u call the buddha & sutta wrong. :P :shock:
The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct.

AN 10.61
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:27 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:17 am wrong!
the buddha & suttas are not wrong. lol - u post here u can't even meditate yet u call the buddha & sutta wrong. :P :shock:
The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct.

AN 10.61
Maybe v both r n different wavelength or perception
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DooDoot
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:29 am Maybe v both r n different wavelength or perception
when the mind experience calmness in meditation, the mind knows calmness is not a concept

when the mind experience expansive bliss for many hours in jhana meditation, the mind knows bliss is not a concept

when the mind experiences nothingness in meditation, the mind knows nothingness is not a concept

for mind without samadhi, this mind cannot know anything about any type of samadhi, whether access, jhana or nothingness
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Aloka
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by Aloka »

DooDoot wrote:This false ideology is SteRo ideology
:goodpost:
DooDoot wrote:Your concepts are Mahayana; just like your avatar.
:goodpost:

.
form
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by form »

Nothingness and signlessness? Same?
SteRo
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by SteRo »

form wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:18 pm Nothingness and signlessness? Same?
Signlessness is neither something-ness nor nothing-ness. Both, something-ness and nothing-ness depend on signs.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by form »

SteRo wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:49 pm
form wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:18 pm Nothingness and signlessness? Same?
Signlessness is neither something-ness nor nothing-ness. Both, something-ness and nothing-ness depend on signs.
Emptiness have signs?
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:31 am
confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:29 am Maybe v both r n different wavelength or perception
when the mind experience calmness in meditation, the mind knows calmness is not a concept

when the mind experience expansive bliss for many hours in jhana meditation, the mind knows bliss is not a concept

when the mind experiences nothingness in meditation, the mind knows nothingness is not a concept

for mind without samadhi, this mind cannot know anything about any type of samadhi, whether access, jhana or nothingness
still im not convinced.
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by NuanceOfSuchness »

form wrote: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:17 pm https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Purit ... n0013.html

....... body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of “space,” “knowing,” “oneness,” etc., that would appear in place of the body and could be peeled away like the layers of an onion in the mind.

From middle portion of the second last paragraph.

Does it mean, infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness?
Thank you for linking the section. I wanted to include the sentence right after you stopped quoting:
detecting the level of perception or mental fabrication that was causing the unnecessary stress.
This indicates that he wishes for the reader to see oneness as a mind-made object that...
could be peeled away like the layers of an onion in the mind.
The experience of oneness and nothingness are not the same, however, they are the same in that they are both mind-objects. This means they need investigation. There can be an issue with investigating nothingness in that the investigating faculty is not present. Of course, I am reffering to the dimension of nothingness.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is oneness same as nothingness?

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:51 pm still im not convinced.
the buddha said not all people can understand dhamma (SN 6.10). also, there appears no point trying to convince a mind that cannot even work out what meditation posture the buddha recommended

nothingness is an "abiding". it is not a concept. the buddha recommends to abide in nothingness because it is calm & peaceful

when peace of mind is known, it is known peace of mind is not a concept
For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

AN 11.2
peace of mind is like abiding in an air conditioned room on a very hot day. the cool temperature of the air conditioned room is not a concept
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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