need help with this ideology

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confusedlayman
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need help with this ideology

Post by confusedlayman »

By doing nothing, old karma will act and new karma wont produce.. leads to liberation


The above quote is from indian teacher but buddha ridiculated it (i think). Even ajhan maha bua said that the above quote follower go to hell because old karma ends and since no new good karma, he might end up in dark place...

so if someone is enlightened, he dont do intential action due to lack of conceit and he hence how arhant differs from above quote follower?

considering karma comes from intentional action, how learning 8 fold path vs just sitting simply (like above quote) contradicts?

is it because 8FP lacks craving and wrong view so intentionally doing action is eradicatd or above quote person due to lack of wisdom has temporarily off his action but will do in future when his mindfullness is low?

(I was slightly confused with this and pls quote sutta as its a famous sutta)

Note if karma is taken as tendency then above full arguements is invalid.
dont think
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

I've thought about this too. An explanation I heard is that doing nothing is in fact doing something. It is an intentional action to not do something when otherwise you would. So doing nothing is not equivalent to a lack of volitional action.

Conversely, for the arahant a lack of volitional action does not mean doing nothing. They still act, but their action does not arise from karma-producing volition.

A yoga teacher once gave the example of someone drowning and a bystander not saving them. The teacher said this had no negative karma for the bystander, because it was inaction. Choosing to save them would have led to much positive karma. But it seems to me that the tormented mind and guilty conscience bystanders experience is negative karma. As I see it now, the choice to do nothing and not save the person was still a volitional action. I'm still a bit unsure about this whole issue so welcome others' thoughts! Is the tormented mind more due to the missed opportunity to do something good?

Doing nothing is trickier than it seems :D
SteRo
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by SteRo »

The challenge is to realize the depth and multi-dimensionality of "doing nothing". Upon realization even "old karma" will do nothing. So it seems that the quoted statement is utterly wrong and misleading.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
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Ceisiwr
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedlayman

Its critcising the Jain view that bodily inaction and suffering burns up old kamma whilst not producing anymore, thus resulting in moksha.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
Garrib
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Garrib »

This view holds that simply by sitting around doing nothing you will attain enlightenment. But this is not true, because there are things to done: It is necessary to cultivate all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path.
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DooDoot
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by DooDoot »

SteRo wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:37 pm The challenge is to realize the depth and multi-dimensionality of "doing nothing". Upon realization even "old karma" will do nothing. So it seems that the quoted statement is utterly wrong and misleading.
:thinking: Having old kamma do nothing is the path practice rather than the result of realisation. Again, your ideas, similar to your ideas of how conceit creates feelings & cravings, are backwards to the Buddha-Dhamma.
Garrib wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:27 pm ...
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:59 pm...
In which sutta/s is this found? Thanks
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Ceisiwr
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot
In which sutta/s is this found? Thanks
The Blessed One said, "Monks, there are some brahmans & contemplatives who teach in this way, who have this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:35 pm
With the ending of feeling (vedanākkhayā), all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas.
Thank you Ceisiwr. The above wrong view about the ending of vedana (feeling) being Nibbana sounds like the often posted views of SteRo, ConfusedLayMan and RightViewFTW.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am the above quote follower go to hell because ... he might end up in dark place...
Indeed, the above appears true. :P
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot
Thank you Ceisiwr.
You’re welcome.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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DooDoot
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:09 pm You’re welcome.
MN 101 certainly appears interesting. It is too long for me to read but how do you interpret the following?
So I said to them, 'But friends, do you know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist?'

"'No, friend.'

"'And do you know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them?'

"'No, friend.'

"'And do you know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past?'

"'No, friend.''
Is the Buddha denying past lives above? If not, what does it mean? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Ceisiwr »

DooDoot

I read it as him asking if they know that by doing X aceseticism Y action in the past is being burnt up. They answer that they do not know.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
2600htz
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Even if "doing nothing" could be possible, it is impossible to exhaust all previous kamma.
Also, "doing nothing" does not cut the underlying tendency to greed, hatred or delusion which brings renewal of being.
Arahants have intention, if they wish they stay in some place, if they wish they go, etc. Its just that its not intention based on "me or mine".

Regards.
Sasha_A
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by Sasha_A »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am
By doing nothing, old karma will act and new karma wont produce.. leads to liberation
There are three types of actions: by mind, by speech, by body. All three of them could produce a kamma.
Intentional decision to do nothing is an action by mind, and could be a kamma.
The only way any action could result in the liberation is if it's based on the right understanding. The liberation is not the result of doing nothing, the liberation is always and only the result of intentional and knowledgeable actions on the destruction of ignorance - it's the result of active following of the Noble Eightfold Path. Doing nothing with your own ignorance is by definition to stay ignorant.
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DooDoot
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am so if someone is enlightened, he dont do intential action due to lack of conceit
wrong SteRo-ism. It appears Arahants continue to do intentional actions yet Arahants are free from conceit. When a Buddha makes a decision to teach X person and keep silent towards Y person, these appear to be intentional actions.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 amand he hence how arhant differs from above quote follower?
The above question, due to wrong view or SteRo-ism, appears to not make sense. It appears not conducive to the development of knowledge to mix different religions, such as Theravada vs Mahayana; Buddha vs Nagarjuna.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 amconsidering karma comes from intentional action, how learning 8 fold path vs just sitting simply (like above quote) contradicts?
8 fold path is the intention to give up craving due to right view. The 2nd factor of Path is right intention. Just sitting is Mahayana/Zen mindlessness due to no view. No view cannot enter the path because it does not transform underlying tendency. That is why Mahayana & Zen often engage in sexual misconduct. Lack wisdom to manage instinctual cravings.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 amis it because 8FP lacks craving and wrong view so intentionally doing action is eradicatd
No. What is eradicated is intentionally doing unwholesome action; which includes action mixed with clinging (upadhi; MN 117).
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am or above quote person due to lack of wisdom has temporarily off his action but will do in future when his mindfullness is low?
No. The above quote does not include any Right Mindfulness. Right Mindfulness always has Right View therefore a mind of wrong view cannot have any mindfulness; even if this mind refrains from action.
confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am Note if karma is taken as tendency then above full arguements is invalid.
Tendency is not karma.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
sentinel
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Re: need help with this ideology

Post by sentinel »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:42 am
By doing nothing, old karma will act and new karma wont produce.. leads to liberation
If by doing nothing refers to --- No Reaction towards some outer or inner influences , then there is No New Kamma being Made .
In this way that it was said one could achieve liberation . I came across this teachings from a monk .
DooDoot wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:23 am That is why Mahayana & Zen often engage in sexual misconduct. Lack wisdom to manage instinctual cravings.
I dont think any tradition are without some misbehaves monastics . Even in Buddha times his disciples appear to have commited serious wrong actions .

:meditate:
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