The Four Noble Truths

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

The Four Noble Truths Are

Understood simultaneously, all at once.
7
37%
Understood progressively, in stages.
12
63%
 
Total votes: 19

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Ceisiwr
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The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

This came up in another thread, which I thought would be interesting to discuss. Please vote and explain the reason for your vote.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

I voted simultaneously, as per the Aṭṭhakathā. It also makes sense to me that to understand dukkha is to also understand its origin etc.
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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cappuccino
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by cappuccino »

I first read the truths in high school


seemed true then, long ago…
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
Saññāvirattassa na santi ganthā,
Paññāvimuttassa na santi mohā;
Saññañca diṭṭhiñca ye aggahesuṃ,
Te ghaṭṭayantā vicaranti loke”ti.


“For one detached from perception, there exist no ties,
for one by wisdom freed, no delusions are there,
but those who have grasped perceptions and views,
they wander the world stirring up strife."


Māgaṇḍiya Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
The path of seeing is as short as sixteen, apparently twelve, moments, if we are looking at it through that hermeneutic, that of the Abhidharmas. That is an incredibly short time, but it is progressive and sequential all the same.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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bodom
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by bodom »

According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati

At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”

When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
:namaste:
But how is a wise lay follower defined?”

“It’s when a lay follower is wise. They have the wisdom of arising and passing away which is noble, penetrative, and leads to the complete ending of suffering. Then they’re considered to be a wise lay follower.”

- SN 55:37
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

bodom wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:47 am According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati

At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”

When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
:namaste:
Me and the OP have a dialogue concerning this early split in Buddhist Ābhidharmika scholasticism starting here: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=576629#p576629

Also, the Sutta of the Turning of the Dhamma Wheel, a more mainstream source, appears to have them sequentially penetrated to.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
sentinel
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by sentinel »

It depends , if one were to include the practice of sila samadhi that is progressive . But at the moment of penetration one could says it is sudden . But even that the word trainings itself is implying progressive . The realisation came with dhamma eye arose yet it is not final as there are more works to be completed until the task is done therefore isnt that progressive ?
You always gain by giving
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confusedlayman
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by confusedlayman »

undertstood step by step after many days of gradual understand. I consider im a slow learner in this ... still baffled that i came to know dependent origination and 4nt are same or inclusive.
dont think
SarathW
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by SarathW »

The question appears to be ambiguous to some. Need clarification.
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

In an ever deepening spiral :rolleye:
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Sam Vara
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Sam Vara »

I'll let you know when I have understood them... :sage:
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samseva
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by samseva »

The forth Noble Truth is a progressive path, by definition.

If you mean "understand the Four Noble Truths fully, all at the same time" then yes, that happens all at once. However, that's just because the Noble Truths, especially the forth, have progressively cumulated to a full 100% understanding.

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
It doesn't all happen in one mind-moment—and there was previous work on the Eightfold Path, no matter if they officially took the "Buddhist" precepts or not.
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samseva
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by samseva »

I'm genuinely asking this, Ceisiwr (although our friction in your other thread doesn't help), and I'm not even asking for an answer: Are you betting everything on subitism/sudden awakening, at the expense of a less-than-ideal practice?

It doesn't work that way: your understanding of Buddhist teachings is progressive—and those understandings are progressively reflecting in your practice.
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