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The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:32 am
by Ceisiwr
This came up in another thread, which I thought would be interesting to discuss. Please vote and explain the reason for your vote.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:34 am
by Ceisiwr
I voted simultaneously, as per the Aṭṭhakathā. It also makes sense to me that to understand dukkha is to also understand its origin etc.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:49 am
by cappuccino
I first read the truths in high school


seemed true then, long ago…

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am
by Coëmgenu
Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
by Ceisiwr
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:35 am
by Coëmgenu
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
The path of seeing is as short as sixteen, apparently twelve, moments, if we are looking at it through that hermeneutic, that of the Abhidharmas. That is an incredibly short time, but it is progressive and sequential all the same.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:47 am
by bodom
According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati

At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”

When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
:namaste:

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:55 am
by Coëmgenu
bodom wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:47 am According to SN 56:30 it is simultaneously:
56:30. With Gavampati

At one time several mendicants were staying in the land of the Cetis at Sahajāti. Now at that time, after the meal, on return from alms-round, several senior mendicants sat together in the pavilion and this discussion came up among them: “Reverends, does someone who sees suffering also see the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering?”

When they said this, Venerable Gavampati said to those senior mendicants: “Reverends, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ‘Someone who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the origin of suffering also sees suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. Someone who sees the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering also sees suffering, the origin of suffering, and the cessation of suffering.’”
:namaste:
Me and the OP have a dialogue concerning this early split in Buddhist Ābhidharmika scholasticism starting here: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=576629#p576629

Also, the Sutta of the Turning of the Dhamma Wheel, a more mainstream source, appears to have them sequentially penetrated to.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:34 am
by sentinel
It depends , if one were to include the practice of sila samadhi that is progressive . But at the moment of penetration one could says it is sudden . But even that the word trainings itself is implying progressive . The realisation came with dhamma eye arose yet it is not final as there are more works to be completed until the task is done therefore isnt that progressive ?

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:42 am
by confusedlayman
undertstood step by step after many days of gradual understand. I consider im a slow learner in this ... still baffled that i came to know dependent origination and 4nt are same or inclusive.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:51 am
by SarathW
The question appears to be ambiguous to some. Need clarification.
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:02 am
by Dhamma Chameleon
In an ever deepening spiral :rolleye:

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:06 am
by Sam Vara
I'll let you know when I have understood them... :sage:

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:17 am
by samseva
The forth Noble Truth is a progressive path, by definition.

If you mean "understand the Four Noble Truths fully, all at the same time" then yes, that happens all at once. However, that's just because the Noble Truths, especially the forth, have progressively cumulated to a full 100% understanding.

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
It doesn't all happen in one mind-moment—and there was previous work on the Eightfold Path, no matter if they officially took the "Buddhist" precepts or not.

Re: The Four Noble Truths

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:47 am
by samseva
I'm genuinely asking this, Ceisiwr (although our friction in your other thread doesn't help), and I'm not even asking for an answer: Are you betting everything on subitism/sudden awakening, at the expense of a less-than-ideal practice?

It doesn't work that way: your understanding of Buddhist teachings is progressive—and those understandings are progressively reflecting in your practice.