The Four Noble Truths

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

The Four Noble Truths Are

Understood simultaneously, all at once.
7
37%
Understood progressively, in stages.
12
63%
 
Total votes: 19

binocular
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by binocular »

Depends on what is meant "progressively, in stages" and "simultaneously".

I imagine understanding the FNT is like pretty much any process of learning: understanding takes place holistically, which is a combination of progressively and simultaneously:
One major motivation for holism has come from reflections on the natures of confirmation and learning. As Quine (1953) observed, claims about the world are confirmed not individually, but only in conjunction with theories of which they are a part. And typically, one cannot come to understand scientific claims without understanding a significant chunk of the theory of which they are a part. For example, in learning the Newtonian concepts of 'force', 'mass', kinetic energy' and 'momentum', one doesn't learn any definitions of these terms in terms that are understood beforehand, for there are no such definitions. Rather, these theoretical terms were all learned together in conjunction with procedures for solving problems.

Holism, Mental and Semantic
https://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/philo/fac ... olism.html
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

samseva
I'm genuinely asking this, Ceisiwr (although our friction in your other thread doesn't help), and I'm not even asking for an answer: Are you betting everything on subitism/sudden awakening, at the expense of a less-than-ideal practice?

It doesn't work that way: your understanding of Buddhist teachings is progressive—and those understandings are progressively reflecting in your practice.
No.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Venerable Sarana in their Notes From Buddhist and Pāli University for the 2nd Year

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... K6sFg5kaGd

has this odd statement. "Gotrabhu occurs immediately after anulomañāna and before the moment of first path. This knowledge has the function of adverting to the path, because it occupies an intermediate position. As soon as it occurs, the mind lets go of formations and takes Nibbāna as its object, but cannot destroy the defilements" at page 213. Gotrabhu for those who do not know is the "change of lineage."

Is it common to refer to the persons of the path (stream-entrant, etc.) as "first path," "second path," etc., in Theravada?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
pegembara
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by pegembara »

Dukkha(First Noble Truth) and its cessation(Third Noble Truth).
Once the first truth is realized in its entirety, the cessation of dukkha is assured.
Obviously the realization of the First Truth only occurs in stages, the latter comes almost immediately afterwards almost reflexively.
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Bundokji
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Bundokji »

I am not sure to what extent the four noble truths are to be "understood". This approach rules out other possibilities such as the 4NT being a function, akin to the red pill in the movie "The Matrix", or simply a linguistic trick.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Technically only the first truth is to be understood. The second must be realised, the third given up and the fourth developed. So even the way the Buddha talked about it seems to say they're not done simultaneously.
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:51 am The question appears to be ambiguous to some. Need clarification.
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?
I agree, the two options are fuzzy since 'understanding' can be conceptual, general, metaphoric etc. The 'understanding' of a dopey worldling differs from that of a smart worldling & their seeing differs from a stream-enterer and on & on.
Better it is to live one day virtuous and meditative than to live a hundred years immoral and uncontrolled. Dhammapada
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by SteRo »

Spk: One “fully understands what can be expressed” by way of the three kinds of full understanding: (i) by full understanding of the known (ñātapariññā) ...; (ii) by full understanding by scrutinization (tīraṇapariññā) ...; (iii) by full understanding as abandonment (pahānapariññā) ...
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
justindesilva
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by justindesilva »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:39 pm
SarathW wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:51 am The question appears to be ambiguous to some. Need clarification.
Are you asking the experience of people how they learn and understanding it or the question is whether all four Noble Truths realise at once?
I agree, the two options are fuzzy since 'understanding' can be conceptual, general, metaphoric etc. The 'understanding' of a dopey worldling differs from that of a smart worldling & their seeing differs from a stream-enterer and on & on.
The next to Dammacakka pavatta sutta ( where 4 noble truths were explained) was Anatta lakkana sutta. To my feeling anatta lakkana sutta , clarifies doubts about the Damma chakka pav. Sutta. There is no me or myself but life is a manifestation of Rupa, vedana, sangna, Sankara, vingnana also explained in Paticca samuppada, as in four noble truths.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

samseva wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:17 am The forth Noble Truth is a progressive path, by definition.

If you mean "understand the Four Noble Truths fully, all at the same time" then yes, that happens all at once. However, that's just because the Noble Truths, especially the forth, have progressively cumulated to a full 100% understanding.

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:04 am Progressively, in stages, because I don't believe in subitism or "sudden awakening."
That’s strange considering the suttas which discuss people suddenly awakening just by hearing the Dhamma?
It doesn't all happen in one mind-moment—and there was previous work on the Eightfold Path, no matter if they officially took the "Buddhist" precepts or not.

:goodpost:








As for me, I want to focus here on the word "fully"; so, I vote the first option: "Understood simultaneously, all at once."

&

There are four levels of that "fullness" or "100 % - ness", from stream entry through ultimate liberation, imo.



Another simple perspective would be: "Proceeding of light simultaneously results in receding of darkness."

:heart:
.


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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Is gotrabhūñāna synonymous with sotāpattimaggacitta (& sakadāgāmimmaggacitta etc.) in Abhidhamma?
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
form
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by form »

The four noble truths is an insight. It is not in any language. So when it is penetrated, it is definitely simultaneous.

If u want to understand one by one, it will be just theoretical.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

form wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:52 am The four noble truths is an insight. It is not in any language. So when it is penetrated, it is definitely simultaneous.

If u want to understand one by one, it will be just theoretical.
:goodpost:
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:39 am Is gotrabhūñāna synonymous with sotāpattimaggacitta (& sakadāgāmimmaggacitta etc.) in Abhidhamma?
For a worldling who reaches the first stage of sotāpanna gotrabhūcitta cognises nibbāna. Following this there is maggacitta, which simultaneously understands the Four Noble Truths. This is then followed by paccavekkhaṇañāṇa which reviews the path, fruition and nibbāna as well as any defilements remaining or the ones abandoned. For the higher levels of awakening the process is the same except that gotrabhūcitta is now called vodāna (cleansing), as the person is already classed as being of the lineage of noble ones.
“No one in the world, Dhotaka,
can I release from doubting.
But knowing the most excellent Dhamma,
you will cross over the flood."


Mettagūmāṇavapucchā
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Four Noble Truths

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:26 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:39 am Is gotrabhūñāna synonymous with sotāpattimaggacitta (& sakadāgāmimmaggacitta etc.) in Abhidhamma?
For a worldling who reaches the first stage of sotāpanna gotrabhūcitta cognises nibbāna. Following this there is maggacitta, which simultaneously understands the Four Noble Truths. This is then followed by paccavekkhaṇañāṇa which reviews the path, fruition and nibbāna as well as any defilements remaining or the ones abandoned. For the higher levels of awakening the process is the same except that gotrabhūcitta is now called vodāna (cleansing), as the person is already classed as being of the lineage of noble ones.
So it looks like gotrabhū is a unique feature of the Pāli Abhidhamma, but one based on a unique feature of the Pāli suttas, namely the "clan-member" whom the Buddha includes as a person of the path in AN9.10 and AN10.16.

Both Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda subscribe to the theory of momentary dharmas, so with that in mind, there will always be a "moment" of penetration in addition to the long process preceding it, because everything so to speak has "a moment." I don't understand how maggacitta is supposed to be "one moment" if so many things are going on during it simultaneously, because usually moments are simple in Abhidharma and form long complex sequences, rather than so much happening in "one moment." But its obvious from our talks that Sarvāstivādin and Theravādin Abhidharma are very different.
The thus come thus gone,
who has neither came nor went,
enthroned on men’s breath,

like the still turtle,
withdraws six appendages
and is clothed in light --

illuminating
the unilluminated
with three shining cures.
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