Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

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BKh
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by BKh »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:59 am There is plenty of evidence in the Tipiṭaka that the Buddha used his psychic powers for travelling to distant places. The reason that his alleged visit to Sri Lanka should be rejected is that it is not mentioned in the Tipiṭaka, its Commentaries, or Subcommentaries. It is only mentioned in later works such as the Mahāvaṃsa. Thus, the claims do not meet the criteria for deciding what the Buddha taught as stated in the Four Greater References of the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta.
I think that the Four Great References can be applied in a way that does not exclude the possibility of a trip to Sri Lanka. As you can see with the rest of the conversations happening in this thread, people are rejecting his visit because it does not meet the criteria of their own beliefs about the world, i.e. psychic powers. That is clearly not what we are supposed to be doing.

However I think your interpretation of "in line with" as "exactly the same as" is too narrow. Otherwise the FGR would have been stated in a more straightforward way. To say that the only things that happened while the Buddha was alive are the things that are recorded in the suttas doesn't make any sense to me. However if there was something that happened during one of his trips, or the possibility of the trip itself, that go against the teachings found in the suttas, then that would be grounds to reject it. But no one has mentioned anything of the sort.
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lostitude
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by lostitude »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:18 am
You didn't understand. You are doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha. :lol:
First I don’t understand why you find it funny to think that I’m doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Second, all I’m doubting is the dogma you are associating with the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, in quite an arbitrary way.
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

lostitude wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:29 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:18 am
You didn't understand. You are doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha. :lol:
First I don’t understand why you find it funny to think that I’m doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Second, all I’m doubting is the dogma you are associating with the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, in quite an arbitrary way.
Ok. There are some hundred suttas talking about supranormal powers, and I'm associating dogma with the three gems, and not you doubting the ability of the Buddha, the effectiveness of the teaching, and the transparency of the Saṅgha.
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enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
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But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
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lostitude
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by lostitude »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:34 am
lostitude wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:29 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:18 am
You didn't understand. You are doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma, & the Saṅgha. :lol:
First I don’t understand why you find it funny to think that I’m doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Second, all I’m doubting is the dogma you are associating with the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, in quite an arbitrary way.
Ok. There are some hundred suttas talking about supranormal powers, and I'm associating dogma with the three gems, and not you doubting the ability of the Buddha, the effectiveness of the teaching, and the transparency of the Saṅgha.
I feel like I’m on a salafi forum right now, but ok...
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

lostitude wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:36 am
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:34 am
lostitude wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:29 am First I don’t understand why you find it funny to think that I’m doubting the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Second, all I’m doubting is the dogma you are associating with the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, in quite an arbitrary way.
Ok. There are some hundred suttas talking about supranormal powers, and I'm associating dogma with the three gems, and not you doubting the ability of the Buddha, the effectiveness of the teaching, and the transparency of the Saṅgha.
I feel like I’m on a salafi forum right now, but ok...
You're funny, though. :rofl:
Without resistance in all four directions,
content with whatever you get,
enduring troubles with no dismay,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
But if they hit you with a stick...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't hit me with a knife.'..."
"But if they hit you with a knife...?"
"...I will think, 'These people are very civilized, in that they don't take my life with a sharp knife.'..."
SN35.88
Dan74
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Dan74 »

I guess it depends on how we approach the Dhamma. If one approaches the totality of it with reverence and faith, which are surely good qualities, then one doesn't examine it critically or start doubting whether there are latter accretions, etc. Religious Biddhism, broadly speaking.

But if one approaches it as practice instructions that lead to liberation, then one seeks to make sense of it to build up a practical system for oneself that one can follow and then a lot may not really fit. That would be Secular Buddhism.

There is a middle way too I think, where one does see practice as very important, but recognise reverence and faith as precious qualities that support practice. There is also an acceptance that our understanding of the world is provisional and limited and though we may be tempted to reject the supernatural, an agnostic attitude is actually fully admissible, given how much our understanding of the world has changed over the course of history.
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Tangent-Man
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Tangent-Man »

Dan74 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:44 am There is a middle way too I think, where one does see practice as very important, but recognise reverence and faith as precious qualities that support practice. There is also an acceptance that our understanding of the world is provisional and limited and though we may be tempted to reject the supernatural, an agnostic attitude is actually fully admissible, given how much our understanding of the world has changed over the course of history.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Dhammanando »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:13 pm Sri Lankan children are taught in school about the Buddha's visit to Sri Pāda, so they take it as a fact, but I wonder what the general consensus is among learned monks and scholars?
My impression, bhante, is that the three visits of Gotama Buddha to Sri Lanka, along with those by the past Buddhas Kassapa, Koṇāgamana and Kakusandha, are universally accepted by traditionally-minded Asian scholar monks. The source of these visits is not limited to the Sinhalese vaṃsa texts but also includes the atthakathās.

The most detailed account outside of the Mahāvaṃsa can be found in Jayawickrama's Inception of Discipline, a translation of the introductory section of Buddhaghosa's Vinaya Atthakathā.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


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directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:10 amMy impression, bhante, is that the three visits of Gotama Buddha to Sri Lanka, along with those by the past Buddhas Kassapa, Koṇāgamana and Kakusandha, are universally accepted by traditionally-minded Asian scholar monks. The source of these visits is not limited to the Sinhalese vaṃsa texts but also includes the atthakathās.
It appears that the source is the Commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa, so we are no closer to finding any source in the Tipiṭaka or its Commentaries.
Samantapasadika.jpg
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justindesilva
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by justindesilva »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:48 am
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:10 amMy impression, bhante, is that the three visits of Gotama Buddha to Sri Lanka, along with those by the past Buddhas Kassapa, Koṇāgamana and Kakusandha, are universally accepted by traditionally-minded Asian scholar monks. The source of these visits is not limited to the Sinhalese vaṃsa texts but also includes the atthakathās.
It appears that the source is the Commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa, so we are no closer to finding any source in the Tipiṭaka or its Commentaries.

Samantapasadika.jpg
Certain Theravada scholars now comment , that out of the many Sutta , samannapala sutta and atanata sutta can be treated as historical records during the life time of Lord Budda.
Samannapala Sutta indicates the various clans of Brahmans with different beliefs as mentioned during a discussion with king Ajatasattu. It is clearly seen while going through this sutta. Brahmans names of various beliefs finally mentioning niganta natha is highlighted in this sutta. It is clear here that all mentioned Brahmans are Indian, and not of Sri Lankan origins.
However Atanata sutta happens to be narrated to Lord Budda
by Lord king Vessamuni or vaisramana with respect to protection of desciple bikkhus who roam the forests alone.
Lord Budds in turn narrates this Sutta to his desciple bikkus to chant in need of protection in need.
What is important in Atanata sutta is that it mentions names of kings as leaders of kumbanda , gandabba, ...... ( another clan I miss,) and a fourth as Naga. These four clans of demons or yakkas have a history of lineages , in Sri Lanka and not in India. The stories during Ravana, during the migration of king Vijaya (100BCE) and the mention of Nagas during the visit of Lord budda in Kelaniya highlight that these demons lived for a long time only in Sri Lanka.
Atanata sutta is more on protection of bikkus in outing for meditation solitarily.
It is mentioned that when Lord budda visited Mahiyangana the civilisation who lived there were yakkas.
I believe hence that the fact Lord budda visited Sri Lanka can be accepted on these facts.
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Dhammanando »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:48 am It appears that the source is the Commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa, so we are no closer to finding any source in the Tipiṭaka or its Commentaries.
Not the commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa (which was composed five centuries after Buddhaghosa, so could hardly have been one of his sources), but rather a commentary called the Mahāvaṃsa, i.e., the now-lost Sinhala work of this name, which Oldenberg believes to have been just another name for the Mahā-atthakathā.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by justindesilva »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:34 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:48 am It appears that the source is the Commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa, so we are no closer to finding any source in the Tipiṭaka or its Commentaries.
Not the commentary to the Mahāvaṃsa (which was composed five centuries after Buddhaghosa, so could hardly have been one of his sources), but rather a commentary called the Mahāvaṃsa, i.e., the now-lost Sinhala work of this name, which Oldenberg believes to have been just another name for the Mahā-atthakathā.
The sources as samantha pasadika etc. were literature long after Buddas parinirvsna. Yet it is shown that sammannapala sutta showing the contemparoty clans in India is evidence from Sutta of Indian Historical society while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka. Why is that such direct literature arising from Sutta is discarded.?
These facts have been investigated by certain Sri Lankan scholars now.
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Dhammanando »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:57 am The sources as samantha pasadika etc. were literature long after Buddas parinirvsna. Yet it is shown that sammannapala sutta showing the contemparoty clans in India is evidence from Sutta of Indian Historical society while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka. Why is that such direct literature arising from Sutta is discarded.?
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by: "while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka."

And I don't understand your question. Discarded by whom?
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:44 am
justindesilva wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:57 am The sources as samantha pasadika etc. were literature long after Buddas parinirvsna. Yet it is shown that sammannapala sutta showing the contemparoty clans in India is evidence from Sutta of Indian Historical society while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka. Why is that such direct literature arising from Sutta is discarded.?
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by: "while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka."

And I don't understand your question. Discarded by whom?
Bhante, I may be wrong, but it sounds like the "theory" that the Nagas and Yakkas are ancient Sri Lankan tribes that became misunderstood as supernatural beings is what is being referred to. It is a theory popular in certain segments of Sri Lankan society.

Is this what you were referring to, Mr. de Silva?
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Re: Did the Buddha Ever Visit Sri Lanka?

Post by justindesilva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:34 pm
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 7:44 am
justindesilva wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 2:57 am The sources as samantha pasadika etc. were literature long after Buddas parinirvsna. Yet it is shown that sammannapala sutta showing the contemparoty clans in India is evidence from Sutta of Indian Historical society while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka. Why is that such direct literature arising from Sutta is discarded.?
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by: "while Atanatiya Sutta speaks of Yakkas, Naga, kumbanda and Nagas with a social history only of Sri Lanka."

And I don't understand your question. Discarded by whom?
Bhante, I may be wrong, but it sounds like the "theory" that the Nagas and Yakkas are ancient Sri Lankan tribes that became misunderstood as supernatural beings is what is being referred to. It is a theory popular in certain segments of Sri Lankan society.

Is this what you were referring to, Mr. de Silva?
Thanks, This is what I wanted to explain. In Atanatiya Sutta is explained that those who harass the Buddas sramana, it is because that the referred yakkas and Nagas differ in following Panca sila. Furthermore one visit of Lord budda was to pacify two naga ( tribe) Royals at at Kelaniya in dispute. Further Sri Lankan history rests on the fact that when an Indian king ,Vijaya,was expelled from India the queen he meets on landing Sri Lankan beach is Kuveni. and later married to have two kids are of Yakkas clan.
But I am in search of the gandabba and kumbanda in society.
Gandabbas are made in statues guarding the walls at the entrance of Temples.
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