What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

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binocular
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What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by binocular »

Greetings.


Since this issue keeps coming up, I'd like this thread to be a summary of the problems and issues that people have with phenomenological and existentialist approaches to the Dhamma.

What bothers you about those approaches?
Where do you think they're wrong?



Thanks.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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rightviewftw
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by rightviewftw »

Ive no idea what phonomenological and existentionalist means. As i i understand it, the expressions are developed by 'philosophers' but i really don't know what it's all about, how the meaning is inferred, what's it's utility and what is it's demonstrable basis of inference.

It is as if someone had a 'special relativity' kind of approach to the Dhamma, is an outsider expected to know exactly what special relativity is to understand what is being talked about for aproach? Obviously so i think.

In the same way when people proclaim existentionalistic or phenomenological approaches to the Dhamma i have no idea of what it is they are talking about and don't care to learn their systems because i think one shouldn't need a third party system to explain the meaning of the Dhamma.

So if i need to learn a 3rd party system to converse with someone about the Dhamma, i am not going to establishing that communication because i do not see any immediate reward-value in learning that particular system.

As it is, i like some systems and methods of special relativity, qm, thought experiments and philosophical paradoxes but i don't proclaim my approach or interpretation to be based on those systems even if i can draw parallels and reconcile things because the sutta method of expression is the core and foundation of my method of conversibg & inference, the other stuff is just a matter of convention and is inessential to the expression, inessential to inference and to the demonstrable basis for inference.

To me it's akin to learning another language just to understand exactly what these people believe or how they understand things.

If plain english isn't enough then i am out, life is too short, bye bye.
'Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness. He should develop perception of unattractiveness so as to abandon lust... good will so as to abandon ill will... mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking... the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.
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DooDoot
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:22 pm Where do you think they're wrong?
phenomenological is subjective therefore it cannot represent the dhamma; which is about natural (rather than personal) truth. the suttas say the reality of the dhamma exists regardless of it being perceived (AN 3.136). :smile:
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SteRo
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by SteRo »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:22 pm Greetings.


Since this issue keeps coming up, I'd like this thread to be a summary of the problems and issues that people have with phenomenological and existentialist approaches to the Dhamma.

What bothers you about those approaches?
Where do you think they're wrong?



Thanks.
Nothing bothers. Nothing's wrong.
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ It's definitely not science but science may provide guidelines nevertheless.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo
Nothing bothers. Nothing's wrong.
:sage:
Paññaṃ nappamajjeyya, saccamanurakkheyya, cāgamanubrūheyya, santimeva so sikkheyyā’ti
“One should not neglect wisdom, should preserve truth, cultivate relinquishment and train for peace.”

Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta
nmjojola
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by nmjojola »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:38 pm
binocular wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:22 pm Where do you think they're wrong?
... the dhamma; which is about natural (rather than personal) truth...
A dhamma that solves the problem of suffering for nature, but not for anyone?
:thinking:
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DooDoot
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by DooDoot »

nmjojola wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:53 pm A dhamma that solves the problem of suffering for nature, but not for anyone?
:thinking:
The scripture posted (AN 3.136) says dhamma is natural law. Possibly u can ask what this means. :smile:

Mendicants, whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature (dhammaniyāmatā) persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles: all conditions are impermanent (sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā).... all conditions are suffering (sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā)... all things are not-self.... (sabbe dhammā anattā).

AN 3.136
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:22 pm Greetings.


Since this issue keeps coming up, I'd like this thread to be a summary of the problems and issues that people have with phenomenological and existentialist approaches to the Dhamma.

What bothers you about those approaches?
Where do you think they're wrong?



Thanks.

Hello,

I am quite interested in these terms "phenomenological / existentialist", in relation to Dhamma. I want to know more about some examples of using these terms in discussing/ explaining Dhamma. Would you (OP) please suggest me some links or sources to read deeper on that matter, for more clear-understanding, where these words can be found using some aspects of Buddha Dhamma.

Thanks in advance,
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Mr Man
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by Mr Man »

binocular wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:22 pm Greetings.


Since this issue keeps coming up, I'd like this thread to be a summary of the problems and issues that people have with phenomenological and existentialist approaches to the Dhamma.

What bothers you about those approaches?
Where do you think they're wrong?



Thanks.
It doesn't bother me and I don't overly hold the notion that it is wrong but -

I believe it may create the notion that the practice of Buddhism is an intellectual pursuit.

It is elitist and not in the sense of "for those with little dust in the eyes".

It seems to create strong attachment and feeds the ego of it's practitioners.

It doesn't seem to put emphasis on traditional Buddhist practice.
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gavesako
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Re: What's the problem with phenomenological/existentialist approaches to the Dhamma?

Post by gavesako »

It's essentially another kind of Abhidhamma approach using a different kind of terminology and insisting on its primacy when it comes to practising Dhamma. Most of such 'practice', just like with traditional Abhidhamma, consists of defining terms and coming up with elaborate descriptions.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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